Seems the French have come up with a way of making their CEE 7/5 socket outlets totally flush.

There's a spring loaded plate on the front of the socket, which is pressed back as the plug is inserted.

The socket's also shuttered.

Looks like quite a decent design.

They're aiming it at areas that need to be dust free and wipe-down (with the power off) e.g. hospital rooms, kitchens, etc. But, I could see it catching on in homes purely for the convenience and looks.

*hehe* cool idea I have to admit!

I really think that CEE 7/7 should adopt that system as the standard socket, instead of traditional reversible schuko CEE 7/4.

Just enforce strict polarisation.

You could phase the side-earthed schuko sockets out of use very painlessly and end up with a polarised system.

For non-grounded appliances requiring polarised connections



Solves all problems when used with the French sockets.

Great idea that - it looks so much neater - I agree, the French socket should be adopted all over Europe INCLUDING the UK!! I'm suer it would help both manufacturers and consumers.

Guys when I was living in France for while and yeah with that photo it is pretty popuar now it came out not too long ago they learn few tips from North America design and readpat to European set up.

Yeah I like it when they standarized it for whole Europeian area just like what the Nord America { USA , Canada et Mexico } all use the same recpetale format.

Merci,Marc

Too bad we can't standardize between North America and Europe.

If the idea of having 240V outlets for imported European kitchen appliances does catch on you might be able to just do that
Imagine - first it's kitchen appliances, then space heaters in all other rooms, as those receptacles spread, grey imports of 230/240V entertainment equipment will go up... until lighting is the only 120V stuff left in the US

Anyway, why force Schuko countries to switch to the French system? Polarization is most important with Edison base lights and those floor and table lamps are mostly double isolated and have Euro or contour plugs that can be reversed anyway. I think having both systems and phasing out the production of proprietary plugs (making all new plugs of the combined type, I think CEE 7/7 it is) is the best solution.

Regarding the age old UK problem - what if one split up a 32 amp ring into two 16 amp radials by adding an MCB and disconnecting one part of the ring? Same amount of power available for the cost of two MCBs and French sockets can be used without any trouble.

That would be a pretty good solution there Ragnar.
I'm surprised the ring circuit is even being installed in new construction in the UK, these days.

The only reason it was used was because it was cheap and allowed a smaller consumer unit for a given installation, especially those with two storey houses.
But let's look at it this way, using say a 2.5mm2 cable with a 30A fuse on it, is poor design really, even though each plug has a 13A fuse in it, you are still overloading the cable to an extent.

To my reckoning, 2.5mm2 is good for about 27A, now, it will take a 30A fuse some time to blow under overload, when you have, say 3 heaters that draw 9A each (not enough to blow a 13A fuse), especially when you consider it takes 45A or more to blow that 30A fuse.
The effects of this current on the insulation of the cable feeding the circuit is often under-stated.

Is my reckoning all mucked up?

I personally think the radial circuit is the way to go, no fuses in plugs, no damage to cables in winter.

Your comments would be good.

Trumpy, the fused plug, and the ring main is far from extinction in the UK, and is still being fitted in new build. [If there was any new build at the moment that is!] I never saw any distribution boxes with fuses as new installations in the UK for thirty years. I used mcbs with rcds in the distribution box in a UK house remodel I did in 1978. Actual loadings of modern lifestyle use in real household situations are now quite low, apart from electric cookers, immersion heaters and of course, the dreaded DIY shed-cum-workshop and these are all usually wired as discrete circuits as spurs. Most houses in the UK with a DIYer in residence usually run an unbelievable number of double or treble outlets, as some sort of Chav* fashion statement! DIY use is where the real risks of overloadings occur, particularly with welders and big woodworking machines illegally installed by 'weekend warriors' without 'Part P' Local Authority approval or inspection. Is that our concern if these idiots illegally burn their houses down? In theory a 2.5mm ring main doubles the area of wire, to 5mm, as one is actually running 2 cables to each outlet socket. The 13A fuse is discrete to each appliance.
Electric Storage radiators are usually wired on their own circuit.

But politics is the real hurdle to the UK switching to a Shuko or French style plug. The furore that erupted from the public the last time this was mooted was indescribable! We have EU elections coming up on June 4, and with the present sleaze revellations of our MPs expenses, the anti Europe parties may grab a fair lump of the electorate. [I particulary liked the story of the Peoples' Representative who claimed over 8000 bucks to rewire his entire apartment because a light bulb exploded!]

Chav? Google; chav wikipedia

Alan

And what if a there are 3 appliances pulling 10 amps each on one ring circuit, and a loose connection on one side of the ring burns open?

I (in USA) thought up ring circuits on my own back in the late 1960's in my teen age. But even then I could understand the above failure mode and suggested the idea in the form of completing each end of the ring into separate 15A breakers. The idea wasn't for saving panel space; it was for saving wire. This was back when there was a push to Al wire from Cu. Fortunately, my parent's new house was wired Cu, anyway.

My way would have the lighting on 12V (and power the transformer from 240V).

I don't see any reason why polarization is needed. I don't even see a need for a grounded conductor supplying current, either. Equipment would need to work that way to be safe on 240V in North America ... and reportedly some isolated remote parts of Norway, Spain, and Russia still on the pre-war 220/127 system with line-to-line power.

Manufacturers wishing to export to USA would need to make stuff work somehow on the 120/240 system we have over here. And this is not hard to do. Just don't design in any assumption of a grounded conductor. Make sure every insulation is suitable for a full 240V potential relative to anything else. Then with works fine on 230-0, 0-230, and 120-0-120. A UPS could be trickier since it would have to match the supply with its inverter output if there is any transition between systems.


That might work, but you would not have the liberty of putting the appliances that add up beyond 16 amps anywhere in the whole original ring. Just leave the ring connected, and put each end of the ring on a separate 16 amp MCB. If the circuit becomes open on one end while over current for one breaker, it trips.

The reasoning was [and is]- how many folks will draw more than the allowed 30A on a 230v circuit? We don't have 120v POCO supply in Britain, nor 3-phase in domestic premises. A broken ring hot is a rare event, but could cause overheating problems in extremes. It was allowed after WWII because we were busted but had to rebuild after 5 years of bombing, using the least amount of copper. The system is definitely out of date, considering modern heavy use of electricity, and some UK builders do use 20A spurs now as an alternative. The ringmain is usually restricted to separate ring[s] per floor area of no more than 1000 sq feet, not the whole dwelling on just one ring. Most sockets actually run lowpower stuff like bedside lights, food mixers, a vacuum cleaner [drawing maybe 4A], or a toaster. The tv/DVD etc might pull 2A. Electric kettle 12A max if 3000W. That leaves portable electric fires, which are usually drawing 4-12A. If you are running 6kw of freestanding electric fires at today's energy costs, you are certifiably blblblblbl!

No way!!
Having two points of supply to one circuit I believe is illegal in most places, it raises a real safety hazard.

Surely you could just hard link the twin breakers like US 240V 3-wire circuits - 1 side of the ring blows and it takes down the other.

However back to this non recessed socket design - there are many on the European market that don't require springs or moving faces to break or wear out - BS1363 comes to mind, and it's polarised!

The Schuko design has been patented in 1926.
Discussions in the 80s made clear that it would not last forever and as a result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60906-1 was proposed.

It is much smaller although it can as well carry 3600W.

Today I'm not sure whether this new plug will really be introduced. I believe that sooner or later a fourth contact will appear, something one could call "Function Earth" to distinguish it from "Protective Earth". It will carry all this current caused by filtering and smoothing of the sinus wave, which today misuses the PE path and causes many problems.

Just in response to the numbers of outlets in homes. We've a 4-bed house in Ireland, just did a rough count of number of circuits and sockets (outlets)

Master bedroom : 4 doubles (8 outlets)
Bedroom 1: 3 doubles (6 outlets)
Bedroom 2: 2 doubles (4 outlets)
Bedroom 3: 2 doubles (4 outlets)
Bedroom area Hallway : 1 double (2 outlets)

Main Hallway : 2 doubles (4 outlets)
Sitting room : 4 doubles (8 outlets)
Dining room : 2 doubles (4 outlets)
Living room : 3 doubles (6 outlets)

Kitchen : 7 doubles (14 outlets)
Utility room : 3 doubles (6 outlets)
Garage : 1 double (2 outlets)
Basement : 1 double (2 outlets)
Attic : 1 double (2 outlets)

12 radial socket circuits - mix of 20A and 16A MCBs

The kitchen takes 3 of these.
Utility room takes 2.
Other rooms take 1 each
+ some miscellaneous for hallways / garage etc.

That's the original layout as per 1976, the distribution panel was upgraded a few years ago.

Total loading is actually pretty small, it's just handy to have outlets where you need them!

Also, there's absolutely no way you can overload an Irish panel as there's a master-breaker which will trip if you ever try to run more than the designed supply. (typically 63A, 80A or 100A)

Main fuse / master breaker has always been required. It saves any risk of people blowing the service fuse as it will react quite fast.

Also, the new Irish regs have banned the use of ring circuits in kitchens / utility rooms.

They're generally not used in most installations here, but they are technically permitted. They're just not the 'done thing'.

As are some areas of Belgium and Germany (mostly suburban Berlin). I am pretty sure though, if the US actually "get accustomed" to 240V for general household circuits power companies are likely to eventually start using 240V phase to neutral transformers as they replace old 120/240V ones. Just a scientific guess though.

IMO the whole "Is Schuko good or not?"-discussion is missing one important point - as someone called it in German "die normative Kraft des Faktischen", I guess that translates to "the standardizing force of facts". They are simply everywhere, and replacing them would cause incredible trouble. Heck, not even the transition from ungrounded 2 pin plugs to Schuko/Euro/Contour plugs worked properly! There are still hundreds of thousands of old plugs in use, either in old sockets of filed/broken down to fit Schuko sockets, even though they were banned more than 30 years ago!

Not only electricity takes the path of the least resistance

This is something I've contemplated for some time, and if implemented would certainly increase efficiency.
Residential use of 240V seems to be increasing in the U.S. From what I read around the internet, European kitchen appliances seem to be largely driving this, but these days with the ease of migration and overseas purchasing, ordinary 240V domestic appliances are being brought in privately. (In the 1950's with large scale European immigration to Australia, many migrants brought their appliances with them).
I think a possible 'U.S conversion to 240V' might go along the lines of a small 240-120V transformer installed in the house to power the millions of low power appliances in existence. I doubt Shuko type plugs would be used as they already have 240V socket designs and it would be pointless and annoying to introduce something new.
Incidentally, the reason why Australia chose an American plug and socket design was the ease of making flat pins rather than round ones.

Well, it does make sense to have a properly polarised connector. There are quite a few desirable reasons for it, not just the lamp issue.

I really can't see any reason why we need to have CEE 7/4 (Schuko) and CEE 7/5 (French) side-by-side in Europe. They're both similar specifications and achieve exactly the same purpose, while accepting a common plug!

CEE 7/7 plugs fit both, thus allowing backwards compatibility with CEE 7/4 (German Schuko with the side earth clips).

All they'd have to do is phase out the side-earthed schuko sockets by simply banning their supply and removing them from the regulations in EU countries using them.

Most existing appliances' plugs are already CEE 7/7 so fit either French or German style outlets.

When CEE 7/7 plugs are used with French sockets and the socket is wired correctly they are polarised.

There is also a version of the contour (ungrounded) plug which has a flat slot on one side (enough to allow a schuko grounding clip to pass) and a round slot on the other (to allow a French grounding pin to pass).

It fits side-earthed schuko sockets as normal, but only goes into French style sockets in one polarity.

Thus, it provides a polarised non-grounded plug.

Then the existing flat 2.5amp reversible plugs could continue to be used with small appliances where polarity really doesn't matter.

I'd much rather see a robust standardised French outlet in use across europe, complete with shuttering.

At present there's far too many national variations of the same thing. Same plug might fit, but the safety standards aren't the same.

Also, if they want the UK and Ireland to switch over, the proposed EU-wide solution would have to be safer than BS1363 and the current CEE 7/7 set up simply isn't.

Well, what about switching over to LHD?

Nobody really wants it, just take a short look at the chaos of European TV-standards.

Wolfgang

Unfortunately CEE 7/7 plugs are not that common, newer molded appliance plugs are indeed usually 7/7, but extension leads, plug strips and most important rewirable plugs usually aren't.

I guess in order to see a serious need for polarization one has to have grown up in a country with polarized plugs... the only situation where I ever thought a polarized plug might be helpful was people digging around with knives in toasters, tripping the RCD in the process (only single pole switch and plugged in switching the neutral).

I was asking in the TECHNICAL sense, not the code/legal sense. If a ring is legal in UK, they (and perhaps they alone) might consider it to be just as OK to have separate 15 amp breakers on each end of the ring, compared to both end of the ring on a common 30 amp breaker.

The only issue I see being a technical problem is making sure the two 15 amp breakers are on the same phase when dealing with a 400/230 three phase supply. If not, you're gonna have a couple breakers pop off real fast.

The other issue is economic ... TWO breakers.

I'd rather just see them drop rings altogether (since I don't consider having both ends on the same breaker to be safe). But I don't live in UK, so it's not my issue.

I'd believe it, although it could take quite a long time. It wouldn't bother me. Then I'd want to get a 240/480 2-pole feed

And today, there are so many more plugs and sockets to replace in every continent. It would be expensive. A 100 year phase out might work.

I was visiting a house this evening for a party of a friend of a relative. It appeared to have been built in late 1950's or early 1960's. All the outlets were the old ungrounded T-slot. That mates with ungrounded NEMA 1-15, 1-20, 2-15, and 2-20 plugs. And I thought those had been phased out of existence. But there they were. I was almost ready to offer them money for them. I also wanted to see what kind of old fuse panel they had

If you supply a circuit from 2 breakers, how do you make sure they're always both off? Linking the handle only works if they're operated manually, if one trips it might not have enough force to trip the other with the free trip mechanism which is mandatory in Europe.

I don't believe in fusing circuits above the capacity of outlets anyway. In Continental European countries there's a simple rule: the smallest outlet on the circuit determines the fuse/breaker. So if an outlet is rated 16 amps, then it's no more than 16 amps, period. The UK tried avoiding this with the plug fuses without too much success. The US allow for 15amp outlets on 20amp circuits, posing a serious risk of overloading plug strips.

Let's face it - unless we're talking about large appliances like ranges, all-electric dryers or others (wired to dedicated circuits anyway), 16 amps at 230 or 240V are a lot of power. Why do you really need more than a few such circuits?

I wouldn't agree with you that the UK BS1363 system has had limited success. It's very successful.

While I'm not a major fan of rings, they are installed in millions of British homes and have proven to be flexible and safe.

In Ireland, we typically use 20amp radials with 13Amp socket outlets and fused plugs.

There are no non-fused plugs that are compatible with BS1363 socket outlets. It's as simple as that. While, it is possible to stick a CEE 7/16 plug into the outlet, it requires overriding the shutters with a tool which is a bit of a pain in the rear-end, and next to impossible on some of the more sophisitcated sockets e.g. MK brand. Larger European plugs simply do not fit the slots as the pins are slightly too wide.

With the BS1363 fusing system, at the very least the appliance and outlet will be protected at 13A, and because the majority of appliances are now shipped with molded-on plugs, they have the correct rating fuses installed. So, things like TVs, Set top boxes, lamps etc are normally protected with a 3amp or 5amp fuse, depending on rating.

There's absolutely no way you can overload a UK/Ireland power strip as the fuse in the plug will blow. The only way you could have a problem is if you used a non-fused power strip while on vacation on the continent with a CEE 7/7 plug on the other end.

The other major difference in the UK and Ireland is that we deliberately moved to a system which was designed to force standardisation by making all other systems obsolete and not allowing backwards compatibility. This was not the case in continental Europe or North America where backwards compatibility with old plugs and outlets was maintained.

If you do come across an old BS546 outlet, or schuko in Ireland (very very rare now) you simply cannot fit a modern plug into it, nor can you fit an old plug into a modern socket outlet.

The net result of this was that in the UK and Ireland you will only find one totally standardised type of socket and one totally standardised type of plug. There are no variations. They're all grounded, all shuttered and since the late 80s, all have sheathed pins.

The major downside of the system is that the plugs are quite bulky, requiring a plug roughly the size of a CEE 7/7 even on the smallest appliance.

I'd suspect that it's HIGHLY unlikely that we'll ever re-standardise simply because we've been through all of this before and it was a mess of adaptors for decades.

It's highly unlikely that since we finally got shut of the old round-pin plugs and sockets that we want to go through yet another re-standardisation

Also, anything that was proposed would have to provide significant safety advantages over BS1363. CEE 7/7 doesn't do that.

"The major downside of the system is that the plugs are quite bulky..."

Don't forget the fact that they always seem to lay pins up. So you can step on them!

Indeed, plug strips can't be overloaded. However, unfused spurs can and that's a classic "DYI" feat I guess. I remember quite well how PaulUK described endless 1mm2 spurs off 30 amp rings feeding lord knows what.

I would imagine anything of 1.0mm² calibre
would be lighting, but even so, it has no right being connected to a 2.5mm² circuit that is fused at 30A.

Edit: Unless the fused spur unit actually had a 10A fuse in it.

Ahh, yes, the Chav's.

I recently rewired my workshop here, with a new 6mm² feed cable from the switchboard in the house, run over a catenary wire (overhead) and installed a new sub-main board with RCD's and a non-RCD socket for my MIG welder and stick welder, new lights, computer sockets and data cabling.
It all came to about NZ$500 all up, it was done properly, no hassle, I think I did it all in a weekend, which wasn't bad going, considering I had the flu and all of the sub-circuits had to be run in PVC conduit (concrete block walls)

It doesn't take much to do a good job Alan, just a bit of thought and pre-planning, people that have endless screeds of bodged up wiring, cobbled onto dodgily connected fittings are just asking for trouble.

In a sense, residences in the USA are fed 240V, but with a centertap tied to ground. Our electric ranges are powered by a usually 50A 240V circuit. So are larger room air conditioners, usually with a NEMA 6-15 outlet (240V 15A). And you could provide such an outlet in the kitchen for the European kitchen equipment (though you'd probably want or need GFCI protection on it).

Smaller loads get 120V, and the big stuff 240V. The 240V loads usually won't care that the hot wires are just 120V above ground vs 240V above ground.

I've heard that construction sites in the UK provide 110VAC for power tools, and this 110V is centertapped, and that is grounded. So the hot wires are just 55V to ground. In a similar method, someone grounded touching a hot wire on a 240V circuit will only(!) see 120V, not 240V.

We had quite a lengthy discussion on the subject of 230/240V kitchen appliances in the US a few months ago I think and I was referring to that thread. Some posters jokingly indicated such practices were going to become more and more common and I just continued down that path

It might happen - many European countries once used 127V three phase distribution. Over the years, more and more appliances were connected phase to phase and eventually the power companies stopped providing 127V altogether. The same thing might happen if 240V 15 amp receptacles in the US become widespread enough and the chinese manufacturers decide to import only 230V gear any more.

There's a bit of a difference though.

In Europe the 127V split phase systems were very much in the minority. 220V 50Hz phase-to-neutral systems were far more common place and became the absolute norm after WWII.

For example, in Ireland 220V phase-to-neutral was standardised upon before 1923. From what I gather, it was also the norm in quite a lot of other countries too.

Because the 127V systems were only in certain areas, appliance makers didn't bother catering for it.

Before long, nobody made 127V appliances or light bulbs, so systems were all wired to provide 220V.

Does anyone know what type of plugs and sockets were used with the old 127V systems? Were they any different from Schuko ?

Obviously there must have been quite a few different types around as there was no European standards at that stage.

I travelled around Europe a lot in the 60's mostly by thumb and seem to recall 127v in Paris, Luxembourg and Leningrad. The sockets were all 2 pin same spacing and same thickness as current CEE 7/16 plugs. I carried a homemade adapter consisting of a European 2 pin plug and UK BS546 2 pin socket for my shaver. The European plug had quite a thick case which stops it fitting in modern Schulko sockets.

The 127v circuit is pretty rare now due most are pretty much updated now.

However there is few spots still using it on old transfomer connection I know few area used that but now everything is wired for 415Y240v format

Merci,Marc

As to the town I live in I have understood the development as follows:
In the inner city, the first what was installed was DC starting at about 1900.
In the 20ies AC came up in the form of 220/127 3 phase. It would reach the outer circle of the town.

After WW 2 new installations were all in 380/220V. A house would always have a 3 phase service but usually 1 phase counters. With the introduction of electric cooking 3 phase became standard on the houshold level. So some areas in the outskirts would have this system as the first installation. Unfortunately often 2/4 wires with PEN until 1971.

Now DC installations were usually upgraded latest after WW 2 to 380/220 2/4 wire systems. DC systems were ungrounded, so this was the easy way to upgrade without rewiring. I hate those as every wire has the same color.

220/127 were first upgraded in the way that only 220V were used which has the advantage that these houses although pretty old have a 3/5 wire basis which often can be reused still today. Transformers were changed to 380/220 beginning of 1960. Some are still left (2 in my city). The one I live with is privately owned.

Change to 400/230 was done on the 10/20kV level.

In near Belgium the rural area around Eupen f.i. there 400/230 was introduced just some years ago. 230/133 is still the standard installation.

I was told by several German electricians that 127V line to neutral was still quite common around WWII and 127V light bulbs were readily available.
Radios had 110, 127, 150, 220 and 240V settings well into the 1960s.

127V Schuko plugs had really weird pins that weren't round but concave on both sides (looking at a socket with the holes aligned horizontally). This was made to prevent 127V appliances getting 220V but not the other way round. Other than that they were built like 220V Schuko plugs.

I suppose ungrounded round plugs were used for 127V too.

Indeed, most city centers first got DC in the late 19th century and the outskirts, especially commercial and industrial neighborhoods got 127/220V AC for the operation of three phase motors in the early 20th century. In Vienna, the 3 wire DC services were mainly converted to 127/220V w/o neutral since the old wires could be reused - 220/380V would have required a fourth wire. The last DC service (residential) was converted in 1955. The last 220V three phase systems (PoCo transformers) were phased out in the 1970s I think, some private transformers lasted much longer, one was replaced in 1989, some might still be in operation, though I doubt it.

Addis Ababa, Ethiopia still uses 127V 3 phase. I was watching a hotel sparkie picking up voltage on both sides of an italian style socket. We got chatting and he confirmed the type of supply.

As do some areas of Berlin (nominal 133/230V). I even heard rumors of 115/230V 1 phase 3 wire systems in use in Germany(outside US army facilities).