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Posted By: pauluk Part P -- 2 years on - 01/16/07 12:04 AM
Statement from the government on the introduction of Building Regs. Part P, January 1, 2005:

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Part P is being introduced in order to reduce the number of deaths, injuries and fires caused by defective fixed electrical installations.

I now refer the honorable members of this forum to Hansard written answers for November 6, 2006:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm061106/text/61106w0038.htm

(About one-third of the way down the page).

Recorded fatalities in the home attributed to electrical causes:

4/2001 thru 3/2002 = 4
4/2002 thru 3/2003 = 5
4/2003 thru 3/2004 = 3
4/2004 thru 3/2005 = 10
4/2005 thru 3/2006 = 13
Posted By: uksparx Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/16/07 06:11 PM
Exactly!!!! It has done diddly squat in that respect, or any other that I am aware of. I know for a fact that people are still "doing it themselves" and don't care.
Dave
Posted By: geoff in UK Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/18/07 08:06 PM
Sadly though, in this sort of situation, the usual government reaction seems to be, "This legislation isn't working; we had better try more of it".
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/18/07 10:06 PM
How true. [Linked Image] Even when it was the government legislation which created the problem in the first place.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/22/07 07:19 AM
Paul,
I have a bone to pick with them figures.
Are the deaths from faulty appliances, faulty wiring or a combination of the two?.
13 deaths per capita doesn't sound that bad really, but having said that, it is 13 deaths too many.
Has Part P really caused these deaths?.
Who inspects these deaths in the UK in a Domestic situation?.
Now here is a very WIDE generalisation from me in New Zealand.
I take it that a lot of people in the UK hate rules and laws, for the sake of them.
I can agree with that.
But, where it pertains to your personal safety, you are on top.
We have an interpretation of the Regs here and it says:
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Everyone that recieves an Electrical Supply is entitled to a safe Electrical Supply and protection of that same Supply.
It used to be Regulation 7 in 1976.
To be honest Paul, you guys are going through what we went through in 1992.
We have idiots here, I'm inpsecting houses wired by these clowns. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Kenbo Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/23/07 10:33 AM
My view on this situation is it shows people are not prepared to pay for their own safety.

Add the exrta cost of inspection, paperwork, etc to the price of the work and people just do not want to pay for it. It just encourages more "cowboys" while penalising the genuine tradesman.

Not that we do not require some kind of regulations. The lesser the financial cost of policing it the more effective they will be.

Kenny
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/23/07 12:25 PM
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Are the deaths from faulty appliances, faulty wiring or a combination of the two?.

The Hansard extract suggests that the figures are all fatalities in the home attributed to electrical causes.

So allowing for the fact that Part P doesn't cover appliances, extension cords, or even a lot of work on fixed wiring, just what was it intended to achieve, given the very low figures before its introduction?

I'm not sure about deaths from fire attributed to electrical causes, but the overall fatality rate by electrocution in the U.K. is pretty low. The last figures I saw I think it was under 100 per year. Given that most of those deaths are from accidental contact with overhead lines, industrial shocks, and so on (i.e. all things which Part P doesn't cover anyway), the actual fatality rate from things which Part P would have prevented (if fully enforced) is absolutely minimal.

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Has Part P really caused these deaths?.
I don't know, but it's interesting that the figures have increased noticeably since its introduction. I think we need to see how the figures go in another year or two.

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Who inspects these deaths in the UK in a Domestic situation?.
I think that any deaths in the home would just be down to the local coroner (unless foul-play was suspected, of course, making it a police matter).

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I take it that a lot of people in the UK hate rules and laws, for the sake of them.
It's certainly getting that way. Especially when people see the rules as being nothing more than an exercise in increasing bureaucracy and an excuse to extort more money in taxes and fees.

Don't forget that we've heard stories of some local councils charging over £200 for a Part P building regs. application.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/24/07 08:43 AM
Sorry Paul,
I hadn't read the thread properly before I posted.
I must say that I agree with Geoff, it seems to be the way that Government is heading anywhere these days.
We used to have a good system in NZ, until the Government thought it cost too much and it could be made more "efficient" and pass the savings onto the lowly consumer.
Well, power prices since then have climbed by at least 25%, if not more!.
Personally, these public servants should stick to what they should be doing, making life easier for thier constituents, not harder!.
It may have escaped them here in NZ, but it is election year.
Good Lord!. [Linked Image]

{BTW, I'm not looking to make this a political thing, but when people stick thier noses in where it is not warranted or wanted, I'm willing to speak up, if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it!}.
Posted By: johno12345 Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/24/07 12:46 PM
My building control charge almost £200 for a notification. They also require an EIC to be issued by a competent electrician. They state that if it is DIY then the DIYer must pay the electrician to issue the certificate. Its just too expensive and convoluted.

It is probably good DIYers that do a good job anyway that pay and idiots that havn't got a clue dont bother notifying.

I suspect that it causes more bad DIY.

The only thing that is probably keeping the fatailities down is that you can still freely buy cable, sockets, MCBs and the such like.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/24/07 02:10 PM
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They state that if it is DIY then the DIYer must pay the electrician to issue the certificate.

Have you challenged them on this? If so, what was the response?

I'm just about fed up with these local council bureaucrats who think they can make up their own rules as they go along when they have no legal authority to do so. [Linked Image]

It seems that several councils are still trying to enforce this approach. There was one (I forget where) mentioned on the IEE site a few months ago, and when somebody challenged the senior building officer there he admitted that they had no authority to enforce this "rule," but that they didn't want the general public to realize that -- And they are still telling people that they need to pay for their own certification. The arrogance of some of these people never ceases to amaze!
Posted By: johno12345 Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/25/07 02:35 PM
I didnt challenge them, i have just about had enough of it all. It used to be quite simple but now it is so complex sometimes things are best left. I saw that post on the iet site too.

I suppose part p could work and I suppose it is a sort of nice idea but it needs to be centrally managed with a clear, simple set of rules. I think the charges at present are prohibitivley expensive and appears to be like another tax. The whole system is over complicated and there is no need for it.

As usual, the law is difficult to understand and not definitive.

I am not in the best mood today, i have spent the last 2 days trying to understand health and safety law [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 01/25/07 05:54 PM
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As usual, the law is difficult to understand and not definitive.
I've become very cynical, but I believe that's what they want these days. If it's almost impossible to understand, there's more chance they can catch somebody out for not complying with some obscure rule.

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i have spent the last 2 days trying to understand health and safety law
I think that comes under "Cruel & unusual punishments" doesn't it? [Linked Image]

But with regard to the original point, this extract is from a circular letter issued by the ODPM in March of last year:

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C.7 Local authorities have no powers to ask householders or others who are not qualified to carry out testing and complete a BS 7671 electrical installation certificate at the householders’ expense. Where a local authority thinks that such testing is necessary in the circumstances to ensure that reasonable provision has been made the local authority must do this at its expense.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/12/CircularLetter30March2006_id1165012.pdf

The government office responsible for creating the rules in the first place has made it perfectly clear to councils that they are not allowed to do this.

So why are they still trying to do it? [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P -- 2 years on - 07/06/07 01:07 PM
Rejuvenating this thread, as I just came across this petition to the P.M.'s office that I'd missed before.

Note the typical politicians' response. There's a lot which just re-states what we already know about the rules, a lot of self-serving waffle about protecting people, and very little in actual response to the concerns raised in the petition:

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page11727.asp

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