Tonight, I turned out to a kitchen fire.
(K-88 for Rodalco)
The kitchen was wrecked and only ashes to work on.
I have pics but I can't post them because they are part of evidence now.
I will later though.
Now the lady of the house insists that she switched the electric kettle on in an ad break on the TV.
She heard the kettle switch itself off (Bimetallic switch).
Later realisng that she was making a cup of tea, she opened the door to the kitchen only to find the kitchen engulfed in flames.
The blast upon opening the door knocked her over.
What I am asking is this, just how likely is it that an electric kettle could switch itself back on and boil to the extent where it ran dry (without the bi-metallic strip bending) and start a fire (all in the period of approx 10-20 minutes).
The reason I'm asking this guys is because this sounds really bloody dodgy.
I'd invite the opinion of fellow Station Officer Ray (RODALCO).
Also, if you were knocked over by the accumulated heat and fumes,etc from the kitchen, wouldn't your clothes be burned slightly, or have a bump on the back of your head?.
And also with a brass door knob set, wouldn't you burn your hand on it?.
None of that took place.
This is rather strange, almost insurance strange.
Anyone is welcome to jump in and have a crack, the more the merrier I say!.
This is just going over and over in my head.
A kettle cannot as far as I'm aware switch itself on.
I could be wrong too.
Your thoughts.

{Message edited to add missing word}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-09-2006).]

Well the mechanisms in the ones I've had apart are pretty cheap and cheerful affairs, and I certainly wouldn't rule out failure in the ON state. e.g contact welding
On the other hand there is usually (always ?) a secondary over-temp device which would have to fail too.
Also, if it did dry up I would have expected an element melt-down which would fuse the supply rather than a conflagration.

Assuming it was a cheap modern plastic kettle, there would be a thermal fuse which typically melts at around 130 degrees. Maybe there was no thermal fuse...I have seen some appliances imported and sold which I'm sure have never been approved (well I wouldn't approve them, or is it just that approval standards have fallen?)and I know NZ gets the same appliances as Australia does.
The older kinds of electric kettle were either in a stainless steel enclosure with sealed element or a porcelain jug with exposed element. With both these designs, the element merely burns out fairly quickly and safely when there's no water.
Hard to really comment further without knowing more about the kettle.

I say "bunk."

First of all, I am quite familiar with the type of kettle you describe....usually has the element exposed, suspended just above the bottom of the pot; plug it in, it works; unplug it and it stops.
I have seen many instances of these things boiling dry- to the immediate failure of the element.
Even if the (automatic) kettle were to somehow fail to shut off, or to turn itself back on...the only loss would be a ruined element.

Now, let's assume the element is encased in the baseplate. Those types I have seen where the element got hot enough (after boiling dry) to melt the aluminum base. There should be some evidence of this, if the thing actually caused a fire.

Now- for another scenario. If the kettle in question is a simple cylinder in shape ("coffeepot" rather than "teapot")....well, I have seen those used, filled with oil, as an improvised deep-fryer. Now that could very easily create the conditions described- especially if there was a gas burner (with pilot light) to ignite the oil vapors as soon as air was introduced.
Of course, if you had a gas burner- why bother frying in the kettle?

Have you any evidence that it was the kettle that started the fire?

It's interesting to note that nothing was noticed in the house prior to the kitchen being fully engulfed in flames.
Normally there is bound to be noise of exploding bottels , cracking sounds of glass etc, or the roar of a fire unless the occupier of the house was deaf.

Also a smell of burning would be noticeable unless the kitchen was on the other end of the house then the lounge.

The house obviously didn't have a working smoke alarm if any.

As already mentioned by our other electrical friends, usually the fully enlosed elements will have a meltdown and the resistance wire within the earthed element casing will short out to earth, blow the fuse or trip MCB, or just go open circuit.
It may cause a molten blob of aluminium and steel on a benchtop or smoulder, but to trigger a K 88 kitchen fire may require further investigation.

The plastic 'made in China' kettles usually have an enclosed element, cant comment how well they melt or burn.

I think fire safety and Trumpy should have a very close look at the actual switchboard of the house what type of fuses, mcb's or 4 inch nails are used on the power circuit concerned.

I do recall that in the early 1990's here in Auckland we had a couple of spa pool fires, up to K 99 house fires due to 8 kW spa pool elements melting the pvc pipe after the thermal cut out contacts welded shut and the flow switch failed at the same time.

A change in the control circuit was the solution to prevent more of these fires and to use a 40 Amp relay which was triggered via the above mentioned switches.
Now the thermal and flow switch had only to carry the control cct current and the risk of welding contacts did'nt happen anymore.

Sorry, I forgot and am blind myself.

Re-reading your topic Mike, the lady heard the jug switch off, so she can't be deaf then and the lounge can't be on the other side of the house, otherwise you wouldn't be able to hear the 'click' of the switch.

The kitchen door knob would be hot to the touch and yes there would be burned or singed hairs, because she wasn't wearing B.A. when opening the door or stay low as a firefighter would do.

Hey guys,
This is perhaps a stupid question from an ignorant, non-firefighing yank. But, I'll ask anyway. What does K88 and K99 mean? Intensity of the fires?

correct.

Standard arrival messages for first truck on the scene.

K 55 MVA ( motor vehicle incident )or special service, like washing off petrol spill.
K 66 rubbish / grass fire
K 77 nothing showing, investigating further
K 88 property fire apparently small.
K 99 property fire well involved.

[This message has been edited by RODALCO (edited 03-10-2006).]

Cheap plastic kettles in the US are usually 1kW. We have one, and swear by it. When we go to visit a friend who doesn't have one, we go out and buy one as a gift. Beats heating up teawater on the stove. Sure, I often forget and leave it boiling longer than I intended, but I have yet to boil it dry. They're cheap enough to indulge a controlled experiment, although I have never wanted to do that.

Bottom line: 120V, 1kW. Aren't the kettles down under (and presumably in the UK) a higher wattage? (And 240V of course.) I suspect these factors could alter the degree of fire hazard.

I am not a firefighter but I do say I must doubt that one could open the door to a kitchen fully engulfed in flames without at least some burns!

Hi Mike,

Could a small fire have already started before the kettle turned off? eg the the kettle's load may have started a fire in a powerboard or double adapter, just a thought. Did it look like the kettle was in the area of origin?


Regards

Dapo

Yes, they are more powerful, ours is 230v 3kw.
Hey, give the lil ol' lady a break!
She probly was wearing enough layers of winter bloomers, jumpers, 3 skirts, a scarf, gloves, furry lined boots and a wooly hat [trying to save on the heating bills] to rate better than a full fire suit! - and having shrunk to 4 ft 8" she naturally adopted the Firemans Crouch .
Also, she probly only weighs 85 lb, and bounced clean off the wall and landed on her cat which broke her fall.
That's new to me - frying stuff in an electric kettle- but hey, it's a free country- Show me in the instructions where it says nix-nix to boiling lard!

ps added-
I imagine her out on the porch in her Shaker rocker, cradling an 8-gage wildfowler's punt-cannon over her lisle-stockinged bony knees, as in the Clint Eastwood film "Any Which way but Loose."

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 03-11-2006).]

OK folks,
Here's what I reckon happened.
Mr and Mrs wanted a new kitchen or new house.
I spent a few nights at this place trying to work out what may have happened:
Sure, the jug turn itself off and the lady of the house did hear that happen.
I took the jug back to work to examine it and there was nothing wrong with the bi-metallic strip whatsoever.
{I will say for a start, that part of the jug was not destroyed}
Having been set upon a cheap counter top didn't help things, because Melamine will bubble and to a degree burn anything underneath it.
When I said that the place was reduced to ashes, sorry that is nothing but an over-statement on my part, one side of the kitchen was severely damaged, but due to the work of the Fire Crews, we get to see what really happened.
And this is where it takes a nasty turn.
Upon examining the jug at work, I noticed something wierd.
It was as if someone had jammed a screwdriver or a knife into the switch mechanism, to ensure that it never opened.
That was why I was asking guys, two dis-similar metals cannot buck the laws of physics, or chemistry for that matter.
Oh and by the way, there is no such thing as a Micro-temp in a kettle here these days.
We are already throwing out too many good appliances, just like one manufacturer to set his Micro-temps a bit lower.
Of course there is no real warranty these days is there.
Anyway, for Mr and Mrs the warranty of a few hours of community service and having your name ripped through the papers a few times is pretty much priceless.
I personally have no sympathy at all.
Thanks for your comments guys, it really got my grey matter going!.

That's interesting. My old 1960s kettle had 1.2 kW and the brand new one in class is 2kW.

So that pretty sure makes it arson... and stupid too!

******DAILY BLUDGER STOP PRESS******

******Free the Kettle Two!******

"We wuz framed!" says Mrs (Bimetalic)Cutout.

Classic Alan !

One comment on the kitchen door... from pictures I've seen I gues had the kitchen really been ablaze she'd have noticed blistering paint long before opening the door, especially around the metal knob!

Ragnar,
The fire happened on the opposite side of the room to the entrance door.
The fact that the door was stained (not painted ) may have had something do with the lady not noticing the fire until she opened the door.
One other thing, with houses having humungous amounts of insulation in the walls these days (we can thank the current Building Act for that here), the fire was more than likely not heard either.

LOL @ Alan, that's a good one mate!.

Hm, ok, that's possible. Still, I think the fire should be audible through a hollow core door (or even solid wood door).

Off to court next week.
2 days of explaining this mess.
Such a silly thing to do, how can you not get found out these days.
Forensics are better than 20 years ago.