As listening to the morning news on the radio, there are signs of a looming powercrisis for this coming winter in NZ.
The hydro lakes are at 72% of normal water level, The aluminium melter in the Bluff is already reducing demand to allowe for more water storage.
The interesting part is what excuses our politicians will come up with this time, e.g. mandatory power savings, increased tariffs, TV advice commercials, etc.
I will keep this thread updated as matters progress and no doubt Trumpy will add his part to it as well.
Lets see what happens for our winter in 2006
Electricity is great!! Raymond
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As long it's there when we turn the switch on.
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Do you have a sales tax (GST?) on electricity there? If so, you can bet that at least some will be suggesting that it be raised.......
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Rodalco, its raining hard as I write, but we all know now that its never going to be enough to avert the "Power Shortages". Our government has allowed a private company to sell more power to the Bluff smelter and then ration power to the rest of the country at increased prices.
This is no surprise given that the smelter is closest to the dam and its more profitable to sell power to it, than say, Auckland.
PM Rob Muldoons "Think Big" projects were never intended to be privatised. Now we are realising the downside of privatisation.
This winter WILL be interesting.
Paul,
Do you have a sales tax (GST?) on electricity there? If so, you can bet that at least some will be suggesting that it be raised.......
We have GST on everything here and have had since 1986 (when it was 10%, it was increased to 12.5% in 1989, with the promise of lower income tax).
Look, what the real issue is here, is the fact that with the introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991,
anybody can object to having infrastructure of any kind near where they are living.
This Act and the blinkered attitude of some landowners, (with a certain amount of NIMBY attitude thrown in) has pretty much hamstrung any attempts to build new generating capacity or even upgrade what we already have!.
Dr David Bellamy was on the TV here the other night, jumping up and down about how bad wind farms and HV lines are.
I defy anyone to tell me what a Botanist knows about power generation at any sort of level?.
Kiwi,
Here's a headless chicken idea!.
Looks like you guys in Christchurch might be getting a new power station, from Napier!.
Here's the story from Stuff.co.nz
So we can alleviate the cruel nasty power charges by basing a Generator (who knows what it runs on) in the South Island.
How do you upload that to the 500kVDC link North?.
I agree with Kiwi's past statements.
{Cut the bloody Inter-Island cable}.
We have enough energy here in the South Island.
All you North Island idiots can argue amongst yourselves.
Don't you folks forget, if it hadn't been for Maui catching that fish, there wouldn't be a North Island.{Maori Legend}
I personally would have thrown it back into the water!.
"Headless Chicken" describes the Whirinaki relocation idea perfectly Trumpy. I'm not sure but isn't it a coal-fired generator ?
A great big filthy belching smokestack is just what Ch Ch DOESN'T need right now. ( bit of a NIMBY there ).
A large project like that is a great boost to the local economy for sure, but can't we come up with something a little more practical.
Man I'm beginning to sound like a Greeny!
Rant: Privatisation has turned our national grid into a stockmarket in which modern-day pirates are free to extort and plunder. End of Rant.
Commercial law prevents tax-payers from obtaining full transparency from our privatised power providers and therefore the culture of bludgers prevails in the generation / transmission sectors. O.K. end of rant there.
We need more generating capacity north, There are plans to built something near Helensville, North of Auckland.
The objectionists are allready putting signs up etc.
Auckland need another 1000 MW station North and as far as I'm concerned it can be nuclear (sorry to upset some) but thats the only way to go with depleting energy supplies.
I have no objections that it is near my place as long power remains affordable.
Cheers
Ray
The problem I have with so many of those who don't want wind farms and such like is that they'd be the first to complain when the power goes out in winter, and when asked if they're prepared to cut back on their ever-growing electrical demand they look horrified.
Do they think we can just create energy by snapping our fingers?
Paul uk:- I agree with you entirely. I met Dr David Bellamy and he was objecting to wind farms etc. But he wouldn't answer when I asked if he had thought about reducing his power consumption. It is an ongoing problem world wide, seems like everything you buy these days has a plug attached (i.e. power consumer).
Dave
Paul,
The problem I have with so many of those who don't want wind farms and such like is that they'd be the first to complain when the power goes out in winter, and when asked if they're prepared to cut back on their ever-growing electrical demand they look horrified.
Mate lets tell it how it is.
In 20 years, how far have we really come?.
We were making progress, but we dropped the ball, somewhere along the line.
We are heading backwards at a break-neck pace.
The world needs a lot more energy these days, and there are a lot more people using that energy.
People want to be entertained these days.
Most of it is crap.
International News, who cares??.
This story is bound to start an argument against the supply of the North Island from the South Island!.
And to think, we're paying for the Electricity Commission to do stupid things like this.
Got your axe sharpened Kiwi?.
{Message edited for typo}
[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-15-2006).]
Thanks Mike for that story.
Typically from burocrats passing the buck.
The HVDC link is part of the national grid and should remain that.
You can see what will happen next? A HVDC levy will be added to your powerbill to get the consumer pay for additional transmission costs.
Ok now our local problems here in the Big Smog. Transpower is still having RMA problems to increase the loading on the 220 kV lines from Penrose to Henderson.
It basically means that the wires will run hotter, up to 120 °C and will sag a bit more.
Load management have been set up now that if a certain critical threshold is reached about 6000 homes will be cut of from the grid. ( what they say, would you believe them, it may be more. )
Good he!! especially when it happens to be your feeder.
edited for typo's
[This message has been edited by RODALCO (edited 03-15-2006).]
With all these modern electronic appliances that cannot be turned off except by the switch on the power point, and greedy people who think
it is their right to have fully airconditioned houses and pool pumps running all day, is it any wonder power consumption is escalating at an exponential rate?
Why is that up until 25 years ago that people survived perfectly well without air conditioning, and now even the slummiest flats now have to have the ubiquitous split system?
As the population becomes more ignorant of where things come from (food is a classic example), they just seem to think electricity can be provided in as large quantities as they want..after all it just comes out of the power point doesn't it?
It really is unbelievable that the green left movement which used to campaign so heavily for wind generation is now turning against it.
Aussie,
I find it very hard to believe that any Australian would say that Air Con is un-necessary.
I thought Air Con was mandatory there?.
As the population becomes more ignorant of where things come from (food is a classic example)
It really is unbelievable that the green left movement which used to campaign so heavily for wind generation is now turning against it.
And mate, that is a group that have lost thier direction, caused by fanatical people trying to put "thier" point across, but instead further muddying the waters and holding up progress.
{Blast, missing "h"}
[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-15-2006).]
[quote]I find it very hard to believe that any Australian would say that Air Con is un-necessary.
I thought Air Con was mandatory there?[quote]
Well it seems to be now, whereas not that long ago it was just a luxury and we seemed to survive without it.
Being a child of the 70's I remember many hot summer days with no air conditioning and we just accepted it. We'd complain about the heat and go for a swim or sit in front of a fan. A few lucky people had a small (up to 2.4kw) wall or window air conditioner that could cool one or two rooms but a fully ducted temperature controlled system for the whole house was unheard of.
But as Australia has decided it must copy everything the U.S does, fully ducted heating and airconditioning are no longer just for the rich...it's almost expected. Hence the summer overload of the supply network for the last couple of years.
Incidentally I do wonder if people are installing airconditioning in areas where the less power hungry evaporative cooler would do. It's amazing how cheap air con is now...you can even buy a complete split system for $400 from "The Warehouse" (a $2 shop).
The other thing these days is with greedy developers, house blocks are smaller than they used to be and with the desire for huge houses (Mc Mansions), houses no longer have eaves and verandahs to shade the walls. And in the treeless locations where all these housing estates are being built it's hardly suprising they're all airconditioned. When they have huge glass windows facing north it doesn't help either.
It's ironic that a 100 year old house was designed to work without air con....a verandah on the north side shields the front from the sun in summer but lets it in during winter. With a hallway running down the middle of the house from front door to back you get extremely effective ventilation with both doors open.
Interestingly there was some bill introduced by the state govt to supposedly make all new houses be energy efficient (passive solar design etc) but the developers are fighting it.
Is the environment we live in really that awful that we must shield ourselves against it, and use copious amounts of energy to do so?
If the South Island generators need the Cook Strait HVDC link to carry power to their customers then they should foot the bill shouldn't they ?
Can anyone tell me why the HVDC link transmits north to south 10% of the time ?
How far does power generated in the southern hydro lakes go ? Does it go all the way to Auckland ?
If the Cook Strait Cable was ever severed, could the North Island exist on its own generation capacity?
If the 19th century settlers would have had a little more foresight then they would have located the capital in Dunedin.
I've just finished reading the memoirs of Logan-Campbell and his account of the decision of the British Govt to locate the capital of NZ at the Auckland Isthmus. Alas the decision was based soley on geographical merit. If only they had known that the other end of the country was going to produce cheap electricity. Things may be different now.
A bit of foresight can make a lot of difference.
Incidently I think it's a little weird that we've now based our capital in a city that doesn't even have an international airport!
Kiwi,
To my understanding of the deal, the DC Link was installed to take up any slack in the lack of capacity in the North Island.
What has happened however, instead of the North Island Power generators building new generation capacity, they have just expected the DC Link to provide a supply to an ever-increasing load.
Now, where we lose out down here, is that when we have a dry summer or winter, it is the South Island that is asked to save power first.
North Island power prices should reflect the cost of getting the supply there, not expecting the supplier to pay for it.
If by "asked to save power" you mean forced to take cold showers.
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Thats a very good point Trumpy.
The South Island always showed better power saving stats than the north island on those news bulletins during the crisis. Maybe because we knew that our hot water was first for the chop!
Oh well if one Mainlander has to take a cold shower on a frosty morning so that a Queen St. bank clerk can have a hot panini & latte ( decaf with skim-milk) at lunchtime then I guess thats just too bad.
I'm going to go outside for my nightly raindance now. My wife thought it was a bit weird but when I mentioned the cold showers she joined in with me, god bless her.
P.S. Trumpy, apparently the south island companies have always paid for the HVDC link, its just that this year Transpower is trying to hike it 20%. Transpower calls this (wait for it....) "CHANGING THE PRICING METHODOLOGY". I just love corporate-speak.
Also we can't charge users north of the HVDC link more for power because the Electricity Commission says so. Thats our dumb-ass government for you.
You boys play nice. DON'T MAKE US COME DOWN THERE!!!!
We've always had this type of argument in the States, and I believe WE invented NIMBY.
I had a great job at the prison, but the yuppies wanted the land and heaven forbid they live near the people they want locked up.
Our Attorney General at the time testified before Congress that it would cost 100 million to upgrade the 100 year old facility to modern standards, but to replace it in some new place would cost nearly a billion.
Congress spent 900 million extra bucks to put me out of work, my gummint in action.
We've got the same fight over here. We haven't built a Nuke in over 20 years, but I think we're about to.......just NOT in My Backyard.....my turn.
George, even though it would only take a handful of marines to successfully invade NZ, I don't know if you guys can spare them.
I suppose a bit of friendly friction between two tiny islands in the south pacific IS pretty trivial though.
{Message edited to remove political content}
[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-20-2006).]
Here's another story from Stuff .
Guys, please lets not get into a political slanging match here.
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After reading that article. I have to say that expecting the North Island consumers to pay for the Cook Strait HVDC link is unrealistic. If Meridian & Co. want to sell power up in the North Island then they have to pay to get the power up there. After all, 75% of NZ's power consumers are in the North Island.
Without electricity the North Island couldn't provide us with "Beehive-cam", "Shortland Street" and footage of their losing rugby team. So we need to ensure they have enough electricity to keep us in laughs.
The news tonight is saying the electricity commission is telling Transpower that they haven't explored all the options alternative to the Waikato pylons.
If Transpower are forced to carry out futile feasibility studies then it's just going to cost the consumer ( tax-payer ) more money.
The electricity commission was supposed to save us money!
Well today we had our first big power outage in West Auckland.
Everything was out for up to 2½ hours from Avondale to Henderson, probably 15000 + customers affected.
Transpower Hepburn went down because of overload. and we lost 6 substations around 100 MW load.
Transpower Hepburn is feed from a 110kV double circuit line, and one circuit was out for maintenance since yesterday.
Around 10.30 hrs monday morning, overload on the other 110kV line caused a full outage.
I went to Te Atatu sub which is fed from Transpower Henderson and we tried to tie in the 33kV from there.
At one stage the load on a double 33 kV line was nearing 500 Amps on each circuit.
The lines sagged that much that some trees caught fire and got a free tree trim today and are a bit shorter.
Other contractors got an open point 110 kV line back in and things were restored to normal at ± 1300hrs.
It is interesting to notice that with all the extra increases in load on existing older lines maintenance is becoming more and more difficult.
Interesting times ahead to look forward too.
Temperatures in Auckland were around 23°C. So see what happens with a bit colder weather. I keep you posted.
Regards Ray
Ray,
That is not a very good sign at all mate.
It sounds like the Grid is in the second stage of melt-down.
North or South Island.
Ask the greenies how we fix that?.
If the Grid fails, I guess they get thier wish, but how will they e-mail Nandor with thier laptops?.
Idiots.
Sorry Ray,
I missed your lower comment.
Line maintenance is made more difficult by idiots that refuse to have Transpower or thier Contractors crews or vehicles on thier land.
Now, call me an idiot or an imbecile, but if you can't maintain your own gear, who is to blame if an insulator junction fails?.
Of course, it's TransPower, they own the lines!.
Trans-Power killed all my cattle, I can see it now and wouldn't our media love that.
Trial without a jury or a judge.
One other thing Ray,
Not long after I was certified as a Lines Pilot (EHV Rotary Wing), I was sent up to the Southern part of the Waikato, to do joint tests on the excisting(sp) lines.
Myself and Roddie (the technician) had stones and various other things hurled at the aircraft.
We were bloody lucky to survive that.
Sure, put a chopper into some 220kV lines, kill 2 people, but bring down the whole Grid at the same time.
Good thinking.
Helicopters and power lines mix like flames and LPG cylinders.
At least the joints on the old double circuit 33 kV line held while nearly carrying twice their design current to keep te Atatu, mc Leod and Waiakaukau going during the crisis.
The new Te Atatu sub. 33 kV bussection was designed for 630 Amps so that was within it's limits.
The news media keeps awfully quite about it for the moment.
Oddly enough Ray,
There were quite a few crews working around the country here on Line joints alone.
I personally think mate, we are in deep trouble when you have a chopper crew @$5000 a day checking joints, every 6 months.
That money should be put into building a better Grid, I don't care what anyone says.
If we can't get rain here mate, I think nuclear is the only option we really have.
Anyone from NZ agree/disagree?.
Regardless of where, it's going to be in the South Island.
It's a question of when.
My own opinion, we should have gone nuclear years ago.
This overly-precious image that we are trying to portray to the world wore out years ago.
How does it look now that we are running out of energy?.
Cut off our nose to spite our face?.
Sure, we may not need a nuclear plant in the South Island, but I would like to see the North Island be Self-sufficient as far as energy goes, not leeching off and getting a cheaper deal than what us South Island customers do.
I would like to see the North Islanders foot the full bill for thier electricity.
There should be no need whatsoever in these modern times, for us to send power to the North Island.
This isn't the 1950's.
When it was installed, the HVDC link was installed to take up the slack from what the North Island couldn't provide in 1961, now it is supplying most of the power to the North Island, the only real competitor being the Huntly (Coal-fired) station, which has been charged with killing fish and bird life in the Waikato river, due to the water temperature rise.
Decide for yourself.
We can have nuclear electricity and still remain opposed to nuclear weapons. New Zealands anti-nuclear stance has always been against warships and weapons. Not electricity generation.
Not to worries! The NZ Gummint ain't, if the media are to be believed; [actually they're not, but that's beside the point].
I read that NZG are not even going to start public information excercises on saving electricity till the power-cuts actually occur. They have, however ordered in a few extra bags of coal for Hunley, so that's all right then!
I'd get some candles and firewood in if I were you- it could be a ruddy cold winter.
Alan
Government couldn't give a hoot about a powercrisis.
They will find a good excuse to increase tariffs again, when power is at a premium because of low hydro storage.
Interestingly the so called temporary powerincreases NEVER get reduced when there is plenty of power and hydro available.
At the Hepburn outage there were actually 39000 customers affected, SADI minutes were ± 1.5 Milion.
Also with the overload on the 100 MVA bank one of the single Phase 33.3 MVA transformers blew up too, and was tripped out on the Buchholz master trip.
a spare was luckily on hand and was required to be railed into position which took about 2.5 hours.
We had an other outage from the same supply grid exit point substation today affecting around 38000 customers. ( 110 kV / 33 kV )
Haven't got the exact details yet what caused this but it aint looking good while the wheater is still quite warm.
The outage was for about ½ hour. I will post if more details appear later on.
Thats right Alan, our government can't understand what all the fuss is about and won't start any power saving measures until we have a problem. Thats our ignorant gummint for ya.
Rodalco it sounds like stress on the grid is much worse in the North Island.
Reminds me of the line from one of the classic Carry On movies:
"What are we going to do then?"
"Do? We're British. We're not going to do anything. Not until it's too late."
Many a true word, etc.
Ireland's sort of in a similar situation when it comes to power. We've a situation where the population and economic activity have increased extremely rapidly and the power generation capacity isn't really keeping up.
The Irish Govenrment opened the power market to full competition and in their attempt to force the ESB (the state owned former monopoly poco) to loose market share to new entrants, limited its ability to expand existing power plants. The logic was that any new capacity must come from new entrants to the market. However, they've been too slow to build sufficient capacity and it would have made a lot more sense to allow the ESB to simply expand existing plants to cope with demand.
The result has been that we're getting very close to the max generation capacity of the existing plants. Because of the huge demand maintenence cycles can't be followed as normal i.e. plants can't have their usual down time.
So far, we haven't had any power outages, but if it doesn't get resolved within the next few years we're going to have trouble.
The ESB are now expanding plants and there's also a major interconnector project about to start to link the Republic of Ireland directly into the British and European grids.
As it stands we've a small AC interconnector into the Northern Irish network which is in turn connected to Britain via a DC interconnector (The moyle interconnector). However, it's simply not big enough to supply sufficient power to the Republic.
I would reckon that NZ has similar problems being a small island system with no interconnection to a larger super grid.
At least smaller european or north american networks can tap into other supplies by buying power in over the grid if local capacity's not keeping up.
The result has been that we're getting very close to the max generation capacity of the existing plants. Because of the huge demand maintenence cycles can't be followed as normal i.e. plants can't have their usual down time.
Exactly
djk, You hit the nail on the head!
It's that bad at the moment that simple maintenance becomes impossible, These last two outages were due to line maintenance only. By having a second circuit off for busbar work and installing new insulators and new line breakers a little shift in loading causes overload and tripping.
The attitude towards the thermal stations is, 'We just run them harder' , which means in general they clock up more running hours, more wear and tear and eventual faillure of plant.
In New Zealand we rely for about 70% on hydro capacity, a fair amount (± 1200 MW)comes from the South Island via the interconnecting DC link across the Cook Street.
North Island has around 1600 MW hydro available from various stations all over the place.
Thermal stations (± 3000 MW)are there for back up and some are used for base load in the North Island.
Some are
peak load stations which were designed for periods up to 4 hours at a time morning and evening peak periods.
Sometimes these stations run for days at a time when the hydro lakes are low.
You can see that is receipt for disaster.
And also what you mentioned too
djkWe have no access to an other bulk grid supply. Nearest would be Australia which is about 1700 kms away.
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I will keep you posted from power hungry Auckland.
Cheers Ray
Edited for insert of text I forgot
[This message has been edited by RODALCO (edited 04-22-2006).]
So I am told (5th hand knowledge) the North Island is now supplying the South Island.
So, if the North Island has all this spare capacity, where is it coming from and why are we supplying them in the first place?.
Chop the cables!.
Egg-heads.
Hi Mike,
The North Island has a lot of hydro generation too, on the Waikato river I can't quote you exact MW but it will be around the 1000 MW mark, then Geothermal near Taupo ± 200 MW and then Gas or Coal fired like Huntly, Otahuhu, Westfield, New Plymouth, stratford Whirinaki etc.
and some windfarms ??
All peak load diesel stations are also clocking up a lot more hours at the moment.
Latest news is also that the 400 kV line from Whakamaru to Penrose will be delayed by the limpwristed electricity commision.
It will be a very interesting time to come.
Auckland hasn't had a cold spell yet. Averaging around 20°C for now.
Also good luck with your new Fire safety job mate.
I see in the news this week the Nth Island 400kV pylons have been given the thumbs down again. Guess we'll just have to lie the wires on the gound then. That should get rid of the protesors.
Kiwi,
Just shut the power off at Haywards.
"Oh I'm sorry, I thought you people wanted a power supply."
Don't want pylons?, Oh dear, we'll turn the supply back on when you all get it sorted out"
No-one asked us if we wanted huge 500kV DC pylons to supply the North Island did they?.
I don't notice lots of people dying in droves down here.
Pack of whinging idiots.
It's OK to have a power plant and lines, as long as it is in the South Island.
That's why we are called the Mainland, where all the work gets done!.
No wonder we hate Auckland down here.
Mike I have to completely agree with you there.
These whinging people around Clevedon on their fancy 10 acre lifestyle block are the cause of all of this and our limp wristed politicians are to gutless to override this nonsense.
Solution is simple, as soon critical demands are reached the area South of Auckland, and Bombay hills will be cut of from there respectively 22, 33 and 66 kV supplies.
The only problem is that Auckland is very power hungry and that area mentioned for load shed is not enough to avoid other outages.
The so called Electricity commision who charges a levy per kWh ( check your bill ) forgets that the longer we wait the dearer the total costs become and eventually the line will be built at 3 times the costs in maybe 10 years.
The whingers you hear on talk back radio have absolutely no idea about logistics re OH or UG cables over a distance of 220 km's.
Imagine say 440 joints in a 400 kV cable, I don't think that will be a reliable supply.
A bit of ground movement, even in a tunnel could create nice fire works.
We keep talking about this topic in the near future when it gets a bit colder and the load increases.
I have a 500 Amp hours 12 Volts DC battery bank on charge at home so I can keep the computer going for live updates as long my ISP has their standby system operational.
Greetings from Auckland
Raymond
We don't HATE Aucklanders Trumpy. We merely find them irritating and amusing ( especially their rugby team ).
Rodalco is right saying the radio talk-back whingers are logisically ignorant. And the UG option isn't viable due to seismic movement.
Interestingly, the Pylon Naysayers all seem to live outside Auckland. The Waikato mainly. I'm guessing that Aucklanders don't care about the Waikato pylon opponents.
Damn right too, Trumpy. 20 years ago those pylons would have gone up without "Consultation". The "Resource Consent" system in NZ is making it impossible to build pylons and therefore we will always have power problems.
Did anyone see that rubbish that was offered up on "Campbell Live" on Wednesday night?.
Apparently, according to a leaked "report" from the UK, any houses that are underneath any EHV lines should be demolished and no new ones proposed anywhere near EHV or HV lines.
I'm sorry I never had time to see the segment, but this sounds like some sort of Environmental group that is looking for publicity.
And what's the bet they were based in the North Island?.
The more I think about it, the North Island wants more energy, but it will be the South Island that provides it.
I think it is time we put our foot down and said no.
They want us to pay for an upgrade that wont benefit us, costing us millions, meanwhile all of our energy is being sent North to power an Island that could be self-sufficient if they got off their backsides and saved some energy for once.
Oh sorry, I forgot, it's too dangerous to walk to work in Auckland, there's too many un-employed people looking to mug you and then go home and run the electric heater all day.
Perhaps the UK report you refer to is Dr Draper's 2004 Oxford University report on the statistics of child cancer vs location, ie cancers contracted by kids living in the near-vicinity to hv power lines.
While this report is still awaiting a peer review by other scientists, he states that children are likely to suffer twice the rates of certain cancers as those not living near these lines, along with increases in adults with depression and of miscarriages. Remember, theses folks will be in the near-vicinity and exposed 24/24, which may be 3 or 4 times the maximum exposure of electrical technicians. He sampled 35,000 child cancer cases, so I think, could he have some statistically significant data?
While not condoning the irresponsible actions of certain environmentalist groups shooting their gobs off on crappy tv shows, if there might be a problem - let's get our kids out from under these lines till we know the truth; that seems only sensible and fair to me. If that means knocking down a few houses to do it - let's do it.
Just my few pennorth.
Alan
Alan,
Perhaps the UK report you refer to is Dr Draper's 2004 Oxford University report on the statistics of child cancer vs location, ie cancers contracted by kids living in the near-vicinity to hv power lines.
These people that are against any sort of new expansion in our National Grid, will go to any level to prevent any such expansion.
Is Dr Draper a qualified Doctor in Science (as in Physics?)
Being "near" HV lines is no excuse.
There could be other such things causing the cancers.
There is a high rate of cancer here in Ashburton here, it's caused by the old Asbestos water pipes, in the ground.
Out of sight out of mind eh?.
Some of us people work up close to these lines and are monitored for changes in our bodies.
Don't hand me crap like this, 66kV or less is harmless.
You've got better chances of getting skin cancer from the sun here.
But don't try and tell the parents that.
Idiots.
And sitting in front of a TV or computer which is en essence an X-ray electron gun.
Then what never gets mentioned is the distance from the conductors to the ground.
Your in house 230 volts ccts are a lot closer than any 220 or 380 kV line anyway.
It's typical clapt@%p from someone who has no proven record, and want's the doogooders believe him.
regards Ray
Mike, Ray, I'm not a medical man, nor a scientist. I try and keep abreast of technical subjects within my limited understanding. Peer reviews are the key- they catch the 'fraudster' and 'publicity-seeker' type scientists when they publish lies, by testing the reasoning, logic, data and by repeating the experiments.
Dr Draper's report was peer reviewed by Professor Denis Henshaw in a paper published 2 March 2006.
http://www.electric-fields.bris.ac.uk. This criticised many aspects of Draper et al team's work, mainly in that it had limited scope and did not properly address some important avenues of research [such as the depression of melamin by electric ionising radiation].
However, Draper's basic findings and statistical evidence were not rubbished, and his team is not alone in their findings. From all over the world, the core scientific view on
some child leukemia is that it may be started by ionising radiation affecting a foetus in the womb and giving it a predisposition, - from atomic radiation, radon, corona effects, EMF, or magnetic fields- even cathode ray tubes if you like. Subsequently after birth the predisposition in that idividual for some outside influence to trigger the cancer exists. That predisposition might be 1 in 20 of exposed individuals, a frightening percentage.
This would explain, if so, why an adult, not exposed as an embryo, could work near power lines for years with no effects.
Alan
The CRT is not going to be with us for all that much longer anyway. It's increasingly rare to see a CRT computer monitor and plasma and LCD tvs are fast becomming the only option. Give it 10 years and the CRT will be a museum peice.
I think this stuff is a lot of nonsense. There are far more worrying things out there than powerlines. I've yet to see any evidence that linesmen / power workers have a signifigantly higher rate of cancers. Also, there are FAR FAR more serious risks in a home ... just look under the average kitchen sink to find a vast array of scary volitile cleaning agents etc etc etc...
Powerlines are WAY down the list of risk factors.
Dave,
I agree,
Having worked with HV and EHV lines most of my working life, in most parts with them live, I have never turned up a positive cancer test.
In fact the biggest risk here is from the sun and our ever-decreasing Ozone layer.
I had a melanoma cut out of my left arm 3 years ago and continue to have what is known down here as a "Mole-Map" done every 6 months.
Using psuedo-science to effect a result in preventing future expansion, is just not good
The point is....We shouldn't build houses under power pylons & HV lines. NZ is big enough to keep power lines and houses seperate. Isn't it ?
I'd agree, where avoidable they shouldn't run powerlines too close to homes, but purely for the sake of making the place look less industrial.
The problem is that homes consume electricity and unfortunately you need pylons to provide it! It's a bit of a catch 22.
Mike, may I say firstly that this subject may be better with it's own thread?
I take a pragmatic line, trying to listen to all opinions without getting out of my pram, but please don't shoot the messenger!
Let's look at the magnetic field effect first. If the Earth's magnetic field is say 0.035-0.07mT, and bees, magnetic termites and pigeons among others can sense it, what effect does an ehv line, 14,000 times stronger at over 1T, have?
WHO guidelines for electrical workers exposure is 200mT [milli Tesla's] on a regular basis and up to 2T occasionally. 2T will disorient and cause nausea in some human individuals BTW.
Having said that, studies in the US have shown conclusivly, from statistical evidence, that strong magnetic fields appear to have little or no long term effects on health, and do NOT appear to link to Lukaemia or other cancers, although research continues.
Now to the Bristol University [UK] research. The statistical evidence that they present is that there IS a link between the increased incidence in childhood cancer clusters and the presence of these lines. Their hypothesis is that the corona discharges from these lines release ions which react with pollution particles and gasses in the atmosphere to produce charged nano-aerosols. [ I buy that, I have an air purifier here in my office that uses exactly this effect. ] Further, the research team hypothesises that it is these nano-aerosols that are the problem; that when breathed in, they stick in the lungs and depress the body's natural resistance to certain pre-cancerous conditions, and that they may damage sperm, ova and the first cell divisions in a developing embryo- ie they damage the DNA. That, as I said previously, means that they may have far lower effects on adults in the vicinity. The statistical evidence from the case clusters around lines showed effects up to 600 metres from them, well beyond the range of electro-magnetic radiation. Studies 50 years ago, [and later ones by many others], have detected these corona ions up to half a mile downwind of transmission lines, as they are large enough to be carried in air currents. Co-incidence?
The studies are taken seriously by the UK Department of Health, to the extent that recommendations are in process to limit construction of homes within 250 metres of ehv lines and 110 metres of other lower tension lines, even with the pressing need for more domestic construction in the south of England and lack of land. Those recommendations are not, I assure you, based on the aesthtics of having ugly industrial powerlines spoiling the view out of your lounge window!!
Alan
Can we really compare the stats of electrical workers who spend 8 hours a day next to 11 kV lines to that of people living 14 hours a day under 110 kV lines ?
The latest National radio news re the Auckland power upgrade is now to build the new line but operate it at a lower voltage.
220 kV instead of 400 kV although have the capabilty to increase the voltage to 400 kV later on.
It's amazing that all is still talk and no action.
It's quit warm still and haven't had a proper cold snap yet.
In the UK as far as I have read about it in old engineering books, they thought 20 years ahead. The new lines built there, early 60's, were initially livened at 275 kV but were insulated for 400 kV, so olny a transformer upgrade was require to activate the new voltage level.
People see pylons, cables and strings of insulators,
Usually they complain when new lines are built on bigger towers.
Therefore it makes logic to have a new line semie ready for a new future voltage level although the beancounters will disagree here and only think as long their nose is long.
It will be a lot harder in this day and age with public awareness of possible side effects of the latter.
Regards Raymond
Another story from
Stuff.co.nz .
Transpower would still build a 400kV line through Waikato and South Auckland but use only 220kV capacity initially and upgrade it when electricity demand had grown.
Why on earth would you do a thing like that?.
Talk about doing the same job twice.
At the rate that demand is rising these days, it won't be long before the 400kV system will be needed anyway.
These folks really know how to waste other people's money.
That's limpwristed politicians for us Mike.
By the time they step the voltage up to 400 kV the costs of the 400 kV transformers and associated switchgear would have doubled or tripled too,
Hence another clip on your powerbill,
Keep reading this,
Cheers Ray
As Transpower was doing maintenance on the 110 and 220 kV lines today, I was called out to two substations with stuck tapchangers.
Auckland was on a half day brown power dip, lower voltages hence higher than normal tapchanger positions.
Normal routine tap for 33 / 11 kV subs is position 5 or 33000 Volts,
Laingholm sub T 2 was stuck at tap 5, while T1 was at tap 8 with 30 Amps circulating current between the two transformers, the buscoupler was still closed.
One of the TCOL leavers had a bushing missing so I made one up from a shortened 25 mm crimp link, We had intermittand faults here before with T2 tapchanger.
Atkinson sub required the manual crankhandle to operate the tap from tap 5 to tap 6, then it corrected itself to tap 7.
Just dirty contacts.
The master, follower controls did not operate prior to the dirty contacts.
Rodalco, what is a half day brown power dip ? And how does a manual crank-handle tap-changer work ?
Sounds like the manual crank-handle tap change should be performed standing on a rubber mat wearing HV gloves, asbestos suit and a flash helmet !
kiwi Rodalco, what is a half day brown power dip ? And how does a manual crank-handle tap-changer work ?
Transpower is doing maintenance on the 220 kV lines hence they feeding some grid exit point substation via the 110 kV lines.
Because of higher currents drawn at 110 kV there is obvious voltage drop on the 33 kV bus, so the tapchangers in the local 33/11 kV subs have to tap up from the default tap 5 (33000V) to tap 8 (32250V), this normally occurs during peak periods too for about 1 to 2 hours or so.
The tapchangers are controlled via the AVR (automatic voltage regulator) which senses the 11 kV lines via the 11kV/110 Volts substation VT, in the above two cases we had mechanical problems with the centrifugal switches hence the motors didn't want to start.
On most tapchangers there is a square shaft provided which can be operated manually with a "crankhandle" to step the tapchanger up or down.
It is good practise to use HV gloves class 1, or better, and a rubber mat although this output shaft is at earth potential.
A tapchanger is designed that the drive motor has brought a quite heavy flywheel up to speed prior to commencing a tapchange.
A centrifugal switch then releases a latch so that the tap change can commence.
It is important that the tapchanger NEVER gets stuck between two taps because the temporary shunt resistor will then burn out.
This is a safety measure so that in case power fails during a tapchange operation, enough kinetic energy is in the flywheel to allowe for a complete tapchange.
This resistor provides resistance in series with one of the windings during parallelling the two windings during a tapchange.
Hope that explains it in a nutshel
Regards Raymond RF.
Ray,
On most tapchangers there is a square shaft provided which can be operated manually with a "crankhandle" to step the tapchanger up or down.
It is good practise to use HV gloves class 1, or better, and a rubber mat although this output shaft is at earth potential.
Yes there is, the manual override and I would never operate one without a hot-stick and a socket attachment and insulated gloves and outers, if above 11kV I'd also use Sleeves too.
Not long after I came out of my time as a Line Mechanic, I had a tap-changer explode due to the internals siezing.
Just as a note about Transpower, all of thier work these days is contracted out, I remember having a stand up argument with some (expletive) from there after they managed to knock out half of Ashburton one night, working on one of the main Grid intakes, they never alerted the Elect Ash Control room as to the fact of what they were doing.
It used to be GEC Alstom that did the work, but I'm not sure where Transpower found these idiots!.
Unreal
We discussing a substation transformer here 33/11 kV.
which has a TCOL system and regulates the voltage on the 11kV feeders.
These are designed to manually and safely change a tap from outside.
The tapchanger handle is at ground level on the mechanical box, well away from any 33 or 11 kV.
I will take a photo of it
Cheers Ray
A local supply TF 11kV / 400V requires to be de energised prior to tapping the voltage up or down anyway, otherwise a flashover could occur within the tapswitch of the actual TF.
BTW Ray,
This thread is getting a tad long in the way of posts.
Would you like to throw a new similarly titled thread up in the Topic list of this area to keep it going?.
Cheers,
Mike.
Ray,
Some of our gear down here is a bit different in design as far as position of Tap-Changers and various other gear.
All the Tap Changers I've ever worked with have been de-energised before working with them.
I would tend to think that what caused the explosion, was an induced voltage problem.
Up until a couple of years back a lot of gear out in the sticks here was so old that it had never been replaced since electricity was first reticulated to these places.
This is probably one GOOD aspect of the Dairy industry here, we got new lines, fusing, and all sorts of other stuff of a decent quality we never had before.
I remember trying to pull out a welded DDO fuse one night on one of these older poles and the cross-arm holding the DDO's snapped off at the pole (where the bolt goes thru the pole and the cross-arm)
That really annoyed me.
I'm glad things are getting better though.
Well, yesterday it happened 700,000 customers in the greater Auckland area lost power due to a broken off earth wire which brought the city to a standstill.
I attach a piece from the NZ Herald instead of the link. I don't find links always work after a period of time.
Auckland's power hangs by a thread
Tuesday June 13, 2006
By Mathew Dearnaley and Martin Johnston source: New Zealand Herald
National electricity grid operator Transpower was under fire from political, business and civic leaders last night over the huge power cut that brought chaos to Auckland yesterday.
The cause was a small earth wire which a wind gust snapped off a high-voltage pylon near the Otahuhu B substation, short-circuiting lines supplying electricity for 700,000 or more people throughout central, east and southwest Auckland.
Prime Minister Helen Clark was among those who questioned the city's reliance on a single gateway substation between Otara and Otahuhu, saying the Government would seek answers from Transpower.
Four loud bangs heard by road builders several hundred metres away at 8.32am signalled a day of disruption not only to the main 220,000-volt power feed to Auckland's central business district, but also to three of line company Vector's local substations.
The earth wire, designed to protect pylons from lightning strikes, flicked off the main link and on to 110,000-volt switching equipment at Transpower's Auckland gateway substation.
That cut all the substation's output, and also threw the Otahuhu B and Southdown generating stations off the national grid.
A second 220,000-volt line running power to Waitakere, North Shore and Northland was undamaged, letting Transpower feed some load back to central Auckland by late morning, although it took until after 4pm to restore supplies to the rest of the region.
Vector, which receives bulk supply from Transpower, had to take care to restore electricity gradually for safety reasons after separate lines feeding 55,000 customers fell in storm conditions.
'Traffic lunacy' after 300 traffic lights disabled
Commuters faced what the police called "traffic lunacy" after 300 sets of intersection lights were knocked out of action, thousands of workers were left with little to do in darkened offices and factories, shops were shut and university exams cancelled.
Some schools also closed and sent children back early to darkened homes.
Despite some minor collisions and near-hits, the police were thankful nobody was seriously injured in Auckland, although a Chinese sailor was swept off an oil tanker in heavy swells off Wellington as big seas and gales swept up from a snow-blanketed South Island.
Winds also gusted to 80km/h at Auckland Airport and to 130km/h in the outer Hauraki Gulf as contractors scaled the stricken 40m power pylon to secure the two ends of the snapped earth wire.
About 2000 households and businesses also lost power at various times in the Waikato, but lines company WEL Networks said that was from storm damage unrelated to the Transpower disruption.
Auckland City and Middlemore Hospitals had to switch to emergency generators, and sewage pumping stations began overflowing into Waitemata Harbour by mid-afternoon.
That brought an appeal from Auckland City Council for householders not to wash clothes or dishes, and to flush toilets only when absolutely necessary.
Before power was restored to most areas from about 12.30pm, dozens of motorists milled around some service stations with empty petrol tanks, unable to refill their vehicles from electrically operated pumps.
Regards Raymond.
I did a 18 hour shift sorting out local outages like feeder faults and lines down.
Why couldn't Helen Clark appear on national T.V. and say that "Gloomy Monday" was caused by a possum ? !
After her statement that she is "Completely Satisfied That Border Control Is Working Properly", after a 9/11 Al Qaeda Cronie is turned over to police by the owner of the FLIGHT SCHOOL he has been attending for a month or so ! ! Helen could pretty much tell us bare-faced lies about anything.
I wasn't here for the Auckland CBD blackouts a few years back. Was "Gloomy Monday" worse than those ?
Then what never gets mentioned is the distance from the conductors to the ground.
Your in house 230 volts ccts are a lot closer than any 220 or 380 kV line anyway.
I remember one TV show on the subject a few years ago in which the team was going around the measuring field strengths in one house very near or under HV lines.
Some of the protesters were almost jumping with glee at having "proven" the evil of the HV lines when the meter shot off the scale around the head of one of the kid's beds.
The high reading in that one spot turned out to be caused by the normal 240V PoCo meter, which was located on the opposite side of the wall.
Exactly pauluk, but scaremongering sells news, and that is what the media likes.
The magnetic fields from our computers, TV's and all electric appliances we have in our houses will produce more 'interference' if you want to call it that, than any HV powerlines which are suspended from high structures anyway.
I think the inplication of the studies is that HV fields are more damaging than LV.