This is entirely off topic:

Last year people begun talking of switching from petrol to ethanol as the price of petrol went up. This year hundreds of filling stations for ethanol are set to open across the country and the sales are expected to jump from very low levels to a significant market share.

Pretty much the same thing as with the switch from leaded to unleaded, just that the change to ethanol involves some fiddling with the fuel lines in the car.

What is happening in your respective countries?

In New Zealand we had up to the mid 1990's CNG or compressed natural gas which was a lot cheaper than petrol or even LPG.

The disadvantage was that you had to fill up about every 130 km's.

Diesel became the most popular fuel for the last 10 years in NZ because of a lot of Japanese import cars, although the government imposed a lot more road user charges on it so there is not much difference between diesel and petrol now these days.

Going prices in NZ $ at the moment in Auckland are as at 9 Feb. 2006
Petrol 91 NZ$ 1.41
Petrol 96 NZ$ 1.46
Diesel NZ$ 1.04

can't remember LPG price of my head,
cheers Ray

CNG and LPG? We've never had that. You have to fill up every 130 km!?!

Diesel didn't become popular until maybe five years ago and is only cheaper for those who drive a lot.

Petrol 95 is a litte over 11 SEK per liter or NZ$2 with diesel marginally cheaper.

E85 (ethanol) is under SEK 8.

The local POCO's were very keen on CNG in the late 80's till mid 90's. Obviously there was a lot of time wasted to go to a CNG station each time especially when going in a rural area.
Some vehicles in the fleet were CNG only, others dual fuel, so you could switch to petrol.
Now most POCO vehicles are diesel powered.
CNG was heavily compressed at around 200 atmospheres pressure in a heavy steel tank, usually took up about ½ your car boot. CNG Price worked out at about 60% of your petrol cost and no R.U.C.
There was some loss of power with CNG unless a electronic timing advancer was fitted in addition to the fuel change over switch.
CNG requires about 22° advance compared with petrol around 6° adv.

I ran my own old XY Falcon (4.1 litres) for 12 years on CNG and petrol with no problems whatsoever.

[This message has been edited by RODALCO (edited 02-10-2006).]

The majority of filling stations here just offer three fuels these days: Unleaded 95 octane (equivalent to about 91 American due to the different method of measuring), diesel, and LRP (Lead Replacement Petrol). LRP is more expensive than unleaded, diesel and unleaded are fairly close in price.

LPG is available at some stations at about half the price of unleaded, but it's by no means widely available everywhere yet.

We have a 1991 Dodge Dakota 4X4 (5.2L)truck that we had converted to CNG (dual fuel really) right from day one.. It has had a few problems with it mostly because it was a "new" thing.. We only get about 100 to 130 Km to a "fill" depending on where, how and who drives it.. We also own a compressor that allows you to re-fill your vehicle right at your home, right off your own gas meter, all that is needed is the gas connection and a 240V 15A circuit.

Problems wise it was mostly electrical, the conversion was very "hack", and the burning of Natural gas in that engine was very hard on the valves for some reason, BUT it did burn very clean. Our 1994 Dodge Caravan (3.3L)had no engine or electrical problems (except for the sheer lack of horsepower), it was converted to CNG from day one as well, that vehicle has since been sold.
The only drawback with owning the compressor is it needs a "rebuild" every few thousand hours at a price of $900 Cdn. but in the long run, CNG is still cheaper than gasoline.

Gasoline prices here in Southern Ontario range from $0.83 to $0.85 /L (87 octane) from what I saw today in my travels.. that seems like a "deal" to most of us considering it was up over a dollar for the longest time, spiking at $1.34 once! Hard on the pocketbook if you drive even a small compact car, but in my case I am the proud owner of a 2000 Dodge Ram 2500 4X4 (5.9L Gasoline motor)... 134 L fuel tank.....1 tank every week and a half..

Boy, do I ever wish it was a Diesel!

A.D

CNG seems to be a uniquely kiwi thing, for here it's been LPG. It used to be only used in taxis when first introduced about 25 yrs ago but now very common in private vehicles; particularly large ones; 4WD's, 6 & 8 cylinders. There used to be problems with the first generation of LPG cars blowing up...problem was if the tank was overfilled there was no room for expansion, so now they make it so the tank can't be filled more than 80%.
As for petrol, LRP was available until last year I think. Now you just get two varieties of unleaded. There was a scare campaign a few years back when 10% ethanol blends were introduced and people thought it would damage their cars so it went out of fashion. The problem was the plastic parts in the fuel line could dissolve. Not a problem for my Model T Ford
Diesel and petrol are about the same price here ~$1.20 per litre with LPG about half that.

Ask yourself this question:

Will any Government let 'cheaper' fuels remain so, before eventually taxing them up to the equivalent price?

Answer: No.

Conclusion: Trying to be eco-friendly is a waste of time and money.

Apart from running steam traction-engines on old tomato boxes, they got us!

Alan

That's the big sting to the whole thing. There are people who have spent a couple of grand getting a vehicle converted to LPG, because at the moment it is about half the price of regular gasoline/petrol (the latter being so high because about 80% of the pump price here is tax, of course ).

If LPG really caught on though, can you imagine it remaining that much cheaper?

Look at VoIP and telephone service in the States. Now that VoIP is starting to take off somewhat, the government is gradually trying to muscle in and impose taxes and regulations to "even it up" with traditional POTS.

That's exactly what happened to diesel here.
To put it simply, they'll tax every fuel as high as they can before they risk losing the next election.

Diesel is a prime example: It was cheaper until it caught on. Up went the tax, not just on fuel but on diesel cars!

Last time I was in France, diesel was barely more than half the price of gasoline there, but from Alan's comments in another thread, I think that's changed.

Diesel was never (as far as I can remember) that much cheaper in Britain. There's not a huge difference per gallon between diesel and unleaded here at the moment, but at most places diesel is slightly more expensive.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 02-13-2006).]

Paul, about 20 or 25 years ago diesel in the UK was a fraction of the price of petrol. It was only when sales of diesel cars started to take off in this country did the price of diesel rocket.

Haven't been on for a long while due to starting a new job just outside London. one good thing about this job is the places I get to visit. Just wait till you see the pics of old switchgear and breakers I took at Shepperton film studios today. I'm hoping to try and rescue some for display purposes but there are asbestos issues involved and they may all be destroyed/disposed of safely.

Going to browse just now to see what I've been missing.

Talk soon.

Good to see you back Simon. We'll look forward to those photos.

You know I don't remember those diesel prices at all for some reason, and I started driving in 1982. I guess that I just never really looked at the diesel prices, as "normal cars" didn't use that smelly stuff!

I do remember somewhere around that time that regular 4-star (*) was, IIRC, about £1.20 or £1.30 per gallon -- And it was still priced by the GALLON then, none of this government-imposed liters nonsense (with suitable apologies to our Continental friends! ).

(*) The old grading of fuel here used a star system: 2-star and 3-star was used for lower-compression engines, and a high-octane 5-star was available for the performance engines. Gradually those other grades were phased out until we were left with just 4-star. That was all before unleaded arrived on the scene later in the 1980s.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 02-14-2006).]

Yes I remember the 2,3,and 4 star. 5 star wasn't available when I started driving but my old Datsun 100A used to run on 3 star or when I was skint 2 star .
3 star was just a blend at the pump of 2 and 4 star. More than once I've filled up with 3* and noticed the car going better than normal. Turns out the garage ran out of 2* without noticing. Can't remember it happening the other way round .

When the Formula Shell was available the old Datsun went like it was on steroids. Pity Vauxhall (part of GM) used dodgy valves and seats in some of their Astras and blamed the fuel, spoiling it for the rest of us.

The only reason I remember the diesel being far cheaper was that my parents ran their own business for years and I used to fill up the vans.

Ray makes a very valid point about the old CNG.
For some wierd reason, it was never available in the South Island.
Maybe it was piped to it's filling stations.
But one thing I do remember was the number of North Islanders that came down here in the 1980's that ran out of CNG at either Kaikoura or between there and Christchurch, only to find that it wasn't a nation-wide thing.
Anyone with a bent for automobiles would remember the Sherpa, we had them at Sullivan & Spillane Electrical in Temuka.
They were a Dual fuel setup and going from LPG to Petrol was often a bumpy ride.
I preferred the comfort of the Ford Prefect Panel van that the Senior Electrician had.
It ran on REAL fuel.

Well whatd'ya know? It seems we have an artist in our midst. From Alan Belson:



I think Alan meant to say that the third price would be for unleaded, since 2-star and 4-star were regular leaded.

Speaking of nozzle colors, it's interesting the way different places adopted different schemes.

In the U.K., it's black for diesel, green for unleaded, red was formerly for leaded, now used for LRP (where available).

I've forgotten the French coding, but I think one of them is blue?

Not sure of gasoline, but the diesel handles are Yellow in this part of Canada.

Here in the states, the handles aren't color coded per say. But, the containers definatelty are. Red-gasoline Yellow-Diesel Blue-Kerosene There is also a green but I can't recall what it is.

Paul,
When I was a EC in town, the young after school shop boy with the company I worked for at the time proved why you should always make sure that you know what the vehicle you are driving runs on.
The vehicle, a Mitsi L300 van was nearly empty, so as you do, he proceeded to fill it up.
I got a ring from my boss later on to tow the van back to the yard, because it was full of diesel.
I looked in the tank filler tube and yes it was.
My boss at the time even showed the young fella the label on the inside of the filler cap: 91 Unleaded Only.
At the PoCo, we have our own filling station and it only gives diesel.
Our whole fleet runs on it, so you could say it is idiot-proof.
However, to change the subject if I may, I like the idea of Bio-Diesel.

Yes Sir! I've filled up a petrol forklift with diesel.

Latest news in NZ is that Caltex is increasing diesel by 9 cts per litre and petrol by 7 cts a litre as from midnight 24.00 hrs for commercial users.
Imagine what that will do to transport costs.

The prices are creeping up again here.

At my local supermarket station unleaded has gone up to 94.9p per liter, equiv. to U.S. $6.25 per U.S. gallon.

>>Here in the states, the handles aren't color coded per say. But, the containers definatelty are. Red-gasoline Yellow-Diesel Blue-Kerosene There is also a green but I can't recall what it is.<<

Funny too, because the diesel pump nozzles in the US are green(!). Go figure..

Saw a bumpersticker recently, "Biodiesel" "Fried Foods Give Me Gas ".

BUMP!!
What's the current fuel price at the pumps in your area. 23.04.2006.

Auckland N.Z.

95 octane NZ$ 1.72, __US$1.06 Litre
91 octane NZ$ 1.67, __US$1.03 Litre
Diesel ___NZ$ 1.22, __US$ 0.75 Litre + Road User Charges.
RUC is around 3 cts km under 3500 KG.

taken NZ$1 as US$0.62

Edmonton Aberta:
91 Octane - Between 99.9cents and $105.5/litre;
95 Octane - Between $1.08.6 and $110.9/litre;
Diesel - 95.5 cents per litre.

And we pump all that stuff out of the ground right here in Alberta and refine it in Edmonton!

France

Been creeping up again the last couple of weeks.
04 22 06 ; 95 octane gas = US$1.60 a litre
= 1.30euro at x 1.233 exchange rate.

Alan

On the way up, yet again.

Unleaded 96.9p per liter / $6.53 per U.S. gal.
Diesel 99.9p per liter / $6.73 per U.S. gal.
@ 1 GBP = $1.78 U.S.

A little chepaer in the city.

I noticed gas was up again. No wonder, oil is at a record ($75/barrel I think).

But the Americans still have some way to go before they reach the prices Paul quotes above!

Check Pilot,

I was to Edmonton some years ago and they (the mayor I think) then claimed you would have gas and oil for the next thousand years. It doesn't look like you benfit from that!

Has anyone noticed that Av-Gas (Aviation fuel) is half the price of Diesel?, and there is no tax on Av-Gas.
All jets, planes and gas turbine helicopters use this fuel.
There was a small increase (per Tonne)(3c) as it is bought, but not enough to warrant the fare increases the airlines have been suggesting.
Airlines buy in bulk, and screw the traveller into thinking this stuff costs a lot.
They over-fill all aircraft witha certain fill and then spill fuel before landing.
That is for fixed-wing aircraft, a helicopter can only carry what it can for a flight, that wieght is taken into account.
A helicopter, if it was to dump it's fuel would start a fire, having said that there is no way to dump fuel from a helicopter, unless you want to puncture a Fuel tank.

Moves are afoot to tax avgas as a prime polluter. [Thats the story, it's just the tax money they're after!]. Guess who foots the bill?
This week in the UK the latest leader of the opposition proved his 'green' creds. by flying up to the Arctic to watch the glaciers melt. I know, pathetic, ain't it? Dumped 30 tons of carbon into the atmosphere by flying up there with a plane load of reporters of course, but it's the thought that counts!


Can we do satire?

Alan

Same here for fuel sold for non-road use. The diesel pumps down at the yards for the pleasure boats are only about two-thirds the price of normal filling stations due to the lower tax.

Similarly, "agricultural" diesel is also much cheaper. It has a red dye added to identify it as fuel which has not had full "road duty" paid on it. Of course, the gummint imposes draconian penalties for using red diesel in a vehicle on a public highway, so nobody around here in farming land would dream of using diesel intended for his tractor in his car.

Aircrafts rarely dump fuel, except for emergency landings. (Granted, some airlines consider "Oops, we forgot the food" as an emergency )

But it sure is weird that they pay less for Jet-A than you pay for diesel. I find it upsetting that the hard working guy with a car subsidises (sp?) luxury travel to far flung destinations.

What do you mean, they pay no tax? You mean we pay no tax! PLEASE don't get the Revenue latched onto that stupid idea, it's bad enough paying $40.00 on top of the ticket price to 'rent' my share of the runway for a couple of minutes to take off and land, without another surcharge to run the blinking engines too!

Alan