Many of have probably heard about this:

Two teenagers in Paris were electrocuted in late October in a substation. High voltage electrocution of youngsters is not unheard of, as the odd one occasionally climb onto trains and into substations, but this time the story took a exceptional twist: Refusing to stop at an article in the newspapers, it lit the proverbial spark that set the country ablaze. The fuel for the fire was the claim that the police had been in pursuit of the teenagers. To date, thousands of cars have been put on fire and rioters wrought havoc on innumerable cities.

This goes to show that electricity is a dangerous thing, but not half as dangerous as politics.

Yeah, let's not even TOUCH the politics behind this one!

I agree with that Sven. (I know this is a borderline case of what is to be posted on ECN and did hesitate before posting. I'll immediately remove the thread if the members feel it is inappropriate.)

It just amazed me that an electrocution could have such an massive impact. I find it fascinating how a seemingly minor incident(*) can give echo around the world, given the right conditions. Imagine the consequences if a head of state was be electrocuted, e.g. plugging in a laptop.

*Minor in a global sense only. I don't think a death can ever be anything but a major shock to those near and dear.

Some years ago, a similar death occured near me (I was in Chicago then) when an enterprising young criminal entered a substation- to steal wire for recycling.

We can post signs. We can erect fences. We can lock gates. But some damn fool will always insist on being different- and get fried for his efforts.

As for politics- well, we have all seen instances where professional ne'er do wells will take things, turn them inside-out, and attempt to spread their own special form of misery. A pox on them.

Let this incident be a reminder to us all that electricity does not play favorites, and it will zap you if you let it.

I've been so busy the last week or two that I've not followed the news much, but I did hear about the riots a short while ago.

It strikes me as being not that much different than the sort of situations we've seen in Britain where teenagers have been killed after trying to outrun the police in a stolen car and then certain sections of the public have decided it's all the police's fault.

I seem to recall there were riots in one of the northern cities some months back after just such an incident.

C-H,
I don't think that there is a need to get rid of a thread like this.
As long as it stays away from the political side of things, talk on.
Any idea what size/voltage Sub-station it was?.
These things aren't as a rule easy to get into.
However, I will say this:
The other night at a Guy Fawkes party (Saturday night) upon being called out to extinguish a fire caused by Fireworks, we were set upon by a bunch of drunken youths, none of which looked like they had even shaved, yet they got alcohol.
I had my bunker coat ripped by a flying broken beer bottle.
They are now complaining to the Police because one of our Senior Fire-Fighters turned a High Pressure Delivery on them to get them away from the Appliance.
Fortunately, it fell on deaf ears.
Like the Police in France, we are only there to do a job, if you want to start injuring us, we can only act in self-defence.
I don't want to sound silly here, but, if you hurt me or my crew, you'd better be able to run pretty damn fast!!.
Oddly enough, most of the people that were involved in that incident just went with the crowd, because of the alcohol.
Idiots!!.
Most of the media coverage in France is from the protesters point of view, why does no-one take the views of the Police that have to try and control this melee'(sp} or the Fire-fighters that have had to extinguish an endless number of cars and buildings that have been torched by this immature crowd.
The idea of Police being shot by civilians, makes the need for the Army to be bought in.
Anarchy in these times is just not good.


{Message edited for typo's}




[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 11-09-2005).]

I hear you Mike! The question people are asking now is if the insurance companies will pay for cars, buildings etc. or if it falls under the "war/riot/terrorism"-clause.

It is a medium voltage substation, serving the neigbouring areas, that much is clear. The voltage is reported as 20 kV.

Either it is a large MV/LV distribution transformer you often find in cities or a step down transformer to feed the final stretch of MV to the distribution transformers in the area. I saw a glimpse of the substation in the paper today, but it didn't tell me anything. I figure it must be walled, otherwise it'd be pretty hard to hide in it.

@ Trumpy
France has got different types of polices:
As far as I know the guys that were on the police side in this case, are part of CRS, which is unfortunately known as a sort of bloodhound gang. Nobody whether French or immigrant or even a regular "gendarme", really likes them and they usually just get the dirty jobs. So when you meet them and they are stronger as in this case, it is not for sure that you will be treated correctly.

On the other hand you got in France a lot of urban youngsters that really have no home and no real chance. Difficult to blame one party for that. Just the kids are often still kids not knowing what they do.

This means, as far as I can judge the situation, that there effectively exists a certain liability on the political side.

The rest is a lot of mass media hystery and ist effects.

I have hesitated in commenting for a few days, largely because a.) it's really a very political issue, and b.) I live here!. I'm going to refrain from comments on the riots, and just say how I find living here, after spending most of my life as an 'Anglo Saxon'.
The French in general are xenophobes; anything foreign is suspect, whether it's British immigrants and their horrid tea, 'ricain 'MacDonalds', ( contemptuously called McDoo) here, or bosch motor cars.
The French almost to a man buy French cars, eat traditional French food, and huffily dismiss most 'foreign stuff' as 'crap'. Ethnic restaurants are as rare as hens' teeth. 'Service' in shops is appalling, employees are virtually unsackable and some of their comments, ( not knowing that I'm fluent and understand all the swearwords and insults ), would make a New York cop blush! Work is not easy to get, even for native French citizens, and starting a small business, for immigrants like myself, is a nightmare of red tape, blocking manoevres and plain bloody-mindedness.
Here's an example. A friend, a British qualified chippie, has just started a carpentry business here, (cut-roof, slating, renovation and rockwall work). He needs a partner to make a two-man team. He can't afford an employee, as social security costs alone are $9 an hour, plus the 35 hour week plus sick-pay, holiday pay, insurance etc... Brit No 2 agrees to be a partner, they start work together. Authorities then say partner must also be a qualified chippie. He was a shipwright, for many years based in New Orleans, refitting ships' interiors. "Can't register, that's a different trade". "Can't register as a laboror, they don't exist in France."! Eventually he hit on the solution, he registered as the 'sales' guy - he had to work on the projects to assess costs for future quotes! One brilliant bureacratic suggestion was to have him as the bloody apprentice- he's 62!!! In fact, the local Brit 'sparky' has an apprentice- a 40 year old fully qualified motor mechanic!

Hopefully things can start to change. A senior centre-party figure stated this week that France was " Bloated with it's own impotence." (sic). Always a good sign when the elite realise certain things just ain't right.

Alan

C-H,
Over here, with even an 11kV substation, there is no way that you could climb into a thing like that.
Without tearing yourself to pieces on barbed wire.
The tops of the fences are angled back towards the climber, as well.
We don't use Razor wire here, thank the Lord, but we've never had a thing like this happen either.

I'm told by friends that the electricity bill is used for some identification purposes in France.

Fortunately, there is far less red tape in Scandinavian countries, but nevertheless the development in France is worrying. Several of "our" suburbs show the same underlying problems as the French, although at a much smaller scale. Only yesterday, the police confiscated a 155 mm howitzer just outside Stockholm. What are the no-goods gonna get themselves next? Tanks and ballistic missiles?

I don't know a thing about firearms, but what kind of bloody cannon is that??? 155mm... that should be enough to blow holes into a concrete wall!

Concrete wall?! 20" of armor plate at 2000 yards, no sweat, given the right round.

Alan

CH. Using a utility bill with your name and address to prove you are who you claim to be makes sense- how many folks carry an electricity bill in their wallet? Credit card, check-book, yes. In fact, this is becoming common practice in the UK too. The problem is, they love their bureaucracy, so you also need your passport, id card, marriage certificate, birth certificate, 20 yard swimming certificate, bank references, wife's full maiden name, place of birth, date of birth, driving licence, and a pair of your old socks. Drives me bonkers, all I want is a tube of bloody toothepaste!
Only joking, they don't want the swimming certificate.
Or the socks.

Alan

Have you ever tried to open a bank account as a non-local in the UK or the Republic of Ireland?

For a simple current account without an overdraft facility and without a debit card or a cheque book they will put you through hell.

Typically:
Passport or Irish Drivers Licence (non-irish ones usually unacceptable)
PPS number (like social security number) if you don't have one yet forget it.
2 utility bills in your name.

If you don't have 2 utility bills you have to get a member of the police force to sign and stamp proof of your address!
(or have it legally proven by a public notary)



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-11-2005).]

I have an account with Bank of Ireland in Dublin which I've held for several years, and if I recall correctly they accepted a U.K. license and and didn't ask for any social security number, but I think I did have to send a couple of utility bills as proof of my U.K. address. I've held that account for several years, so it's probably all different now (and of course I was a non-resident).

Last time I opened a bank account in England was when I changed banks about 5 years ago. I didn't want credit, a guarantee card, or anything like that, but they still process the application as though you were applying for a loan and run a credit check. As with a simple "current" (checking) account the bank is looking after my money, it would be more appropriate if I asked them for references!

I wonder whether a certain person at No. 10 is trying to catch us up to the levels of French bureaucracy sometimes, as it's certainly been getting steadily worse in recent years.

Just trying to get my 25% council-tax discount every year is becoming a nightmare in which the council demands proof of ID, utility bills, copy of driver's license or passport, etc. It's funny how they don't seem to ask for all of that before they send out the bill.

Paul, The difference I noticed between the UK and France is whereas UK bureaucracy is total chaos on the arse / elbow level, French bureaucracy is smooothly professional, if seemingly complex. Once you have a dossier completed, you have no further worries, it all works like well-oiled clockwork.
(Just to relieve the boredom they do occasionally 'lose' the complete dossier and ask you to fill it all out again. I have learned to tell them to bloody well look for the old one, and this usually works!)
An Example: Go to doctor's cabinet ( surgery). See quack. Pay €21 on the spot, walk round to pharmacy, get medicine. Give chemist 'chipped' medicare card containing your full life history. Card swiped. Pay for medicine. Milliseconds later, bank account has been credited with €20 for the doctor, and reimbursement of a % of the chemist's bill. At the same time, my insurance pays into my bank the rest of the reimbursement = 100% repaid. For this I pay French Social Security and the Insurance Co.. And the only reason I pay is that after pouring 9% of my UK earnings into the so-called 'National Insurance Fund' in the UK for nigh on 40 years, after 2 1/2 years abroad they cut you adrift with nothing. What a fraud! Recently a new Junior Minister was announced in the House as being in charge of the 'Fund'(sic). Up pops a friendly Opposition Member; "May I inquire of the Honorable Member how much money is in this 'Fund' you are in charge of?". After a lot of blustering, he had to admit the Fund didn't even exist, and there was thus no money in it. Pull stunts like this in the private sector and you go to jail for fraud. They do it with £50,000 a year expenses on top.
As to the civil disturbances, I see Chirac is getting the figurative guillotine oiled. Certain hot-headed politicos are headed for the chop, notably the salopard who called immigrants scum.

A. Scum (retired)

Paul,

You obviously opened that before the "Bogus non resident accounts" scandal...

That plus the anti-money laundering legislation that came into force has created a total nightmare for anyone opening any sort of a bank account.

It's caused havoc for a lot of new immigrants too... e.g. your employer won't pay by anything other than direct credit transfer into a bank account. you can't open a bank account without a utility bill. you can't get a utility bill in your name with out having the ability to set up a direct debit mandate,, which obviously requires a bank account! ... total catch 22.

and, since the introduction of the freedom reduction act or whatever series of laws came into force. Your PPS number's required for absolutely everything...

(Basically it allows the Revenue Commissioners (Tax people) to trace all your accounts...)

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-12-2005).]

Yep, I had that one at the council offices when I demanded action. Off goes the clerk, comes back five minutes later and says "The person who was dealing with your case isn't here and I can't find the file." Then he looks blankly as though I'm just supposed to say O.K. and leave.

Well, not this little black duck! I just said "Well you'd better go look for it then, I'll wait," and sat there. It's funny how he managed to come back with it about 15 minutes later.


I knew there was a lot in favor of being self-employed.

Good lord I live somewhere I don't need the electricity bill cos' I haven't had one in years.

Don't you just love those people who send out these papers to be filled out?

Take these little silly pieces of paper that comes from the bureau of statistics. It demands the price and weight of all imports from other EU countries every month.

What use can the state have for the information that we last month bought 1 kg of earth fault detectors and 360 kg of electrical cabinets?

Last year we shipped gear to China. Customs demanded guarantess of heat treated wood in all boxes and the contents of all boxes including photos and serial number of the parts!

(We literally missed the boat by a few days. Luckily, other suppliers were late too so the customer chartered a freighter to nearest airport in China. We had 9 tonnes of gear on that flight. )