There are rumours out regarding the plugs and sockets in Denmark and Israel.

---- Denmark ---
The Danish plug and socket system will be discontinued, beginning next year.

There are safety concerns regarding this. To an outsiders suprise, it is not that the earth pin is lost but that the fit of the Danish two-pin plug is such that it will disintegrate when removed from a shucko socket. (My theory is that the problem is that the pins are sleeved further than on sleeved two pin contour plugs. The "edge" in the pin surface therefore sticks to the socket cover in the Schuko. The europlug has thinner pins and doesn't suffer from this.)

And the earthing? Doesn't matter. The de-facto standard plug is already the schuko.

--- Israel ---

There is some information that the Israelis are working on a round pin design to replace their current standard with flattened pins. As I understand it, they will go for two standards: Something in the style of the European plugs for normal use and a version of the 15A BS546 standard for special uses. (To make it non-interchangeable)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-30-2005).]

It would make a lot of sense to abandon both of those systems. They're fine in a totally isolated environment where people don't travel and, particularly in the case of Denmark (a small country within the EU) it must be very difficult to avoid appliances shipping with Schuko plugs.

If there's no advantage to the systems they shouldn't be kept.

As for the Italian system. It could be phased out rather easily by simply replacing the wide-spaced 16A italian plugs with schuko and introducing an Italian version of the schuko socket outlet that incorporates a receptical for the italian ground pin on the 10A plugs.

As for the UK and Ireland I'd advocate introducing a fused schuko socket outlet that fits BS plates. I'm sure there must be a practical work-around to allow the UK to keep its ring circuits yet use a more compatable plug / socket system.

With the freedom of travel these days this makes a lot of sense.

I wonder why Israel wants a non-interchangeable system at all? schuko is rated at 16A, so they wouldn't gain anything by using 15A BS546 plugs.

My thoughts on the UK system are thus:

The current ring system uses 2.5mm cable, therefore split the ring at the centre point, and convert to 2 x 16A radials, this would keep the same overall capacity but change the protection to 16A thus allowing normal schuko plugs to be used.

Fused connection units could be retained, I see no incompatability issues, other than the 'permanent load reducing circuit capacity' one, which has already been addressed by the IEE for the ring.

It shouldn't cost much more to do this as people will have the electrician there to replace the sockets anyway, possibly Consumer Unit manufacturers could come up with a twin breaker similar to some US panel manufacturers?

(edit to get more on topic and add a question)

[This message has been edited by chipmunk (edited 09-30-2005).]

A non interchangable optional system makes sense for things like UPS / Clean earth systems etc etc..

It's not fun when a cleaner plugs a 2000W vacuum cleaner into your UPS installation

Ahh, for specialist use, similar to the old Walsall Gauge and MK T-Earth systems in the UK..

*Enlightenment dawns*

That's exactly what's silently happening! Only the Italians don't talk about it! In 1993 a house in Tuscany I used to visit frequently got electricity. All the surface-mount sockets would take both Italian 10A and Schuko plugs! Most Italian power strips do too, sometimes even 10A, 16A and Schuko. In 2001 I spent some time in Torino, where I lived at least half the stuff was plugged in using Schuko and adaptors or multi-function power strips. Adaptors are readily available at every supermarket, and I've seen several flush mount receptacles that either have a Schuko and a 10A/16A socket side by side or just a single Schuko receptacle on a standard Italian wall plate. So i guess the Italian system will eventually phase itself out.... Italian boxes are _huge_ compared to anything I've seen in Europe (both bigger and noticeably deeper than ours, let alone standard UK 2,5cm deep boxes), so there's plenty of room for fitting recessed sockets. Only the old 3 receptacles on single gang wall plate doesn't work any more.

It would probably be quite easy to incorporate a BS1362 fuse into a British version of the Schuko outlet, although it will come as no surprise to those of you who know my views about ring circuits that I'd much rather go with splitting into 16A radials instead.

Also, if non-fused Schukos were sold here for radial circuit use, how long would it be before we saw people putting these directly onto existing 30/32A ring circuits?

The only other problem I forsee is that Schukos for retrofitting into existing 1-inch deep boxes would probably need to have a fairly deep faceplate to accommodate the extra depth. I'm not sure how people who like flush-fitted devices would like that.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-01-2005).]

Yup - a usual modern Schuko outlet is about 3cm deep from the wall surface. Certainly won't fit a 1" box. However, french sockets of equal construction are often much less deep.

they could be made flush at the edge and gently rise up to the edge of the socket. Giving you the same recess on a nice looking plate.

That's exactly what the French sockets I described above are built like. Maybe the next time I'm at a Czech supermarket I can buy one and snap a picture. (Should get there some time the next weeks and they're dirt cheap, something like 2 Euro for a flush mount socket)

There's no reason why a system like that couldn't work in the UK.

Superflat flush versions would simply require deeper boxes from that point on.

There's also no reason why the UK would have non-fused schuko compatable outlets. The UK wall plate's quite different from most of the rest of Europe and I really doubt that anyone would go to the bother of trying to get a French or German outlet to fit a UK box.

You could even have a converter socket, similar to those sold for converting a single socket to a double socket / double socket to a triple socket.

They're basically a multi-way adaptor that is fixed to the wall over an exsiting socket and just plugs into it! Big ugly crude things but they do work.

I'm having a hard time trying to believe all of this...the implications are enormous. What's wrong with leaving things as they are? I can't believe another plug and socket is about to be developed.


All I can say is how fortunate we are in the South Pacific region to have had the one standard plug since day one...and the Yanks must be thinking the same.

CEE 7/7 is the defacto european standard and is used by hundreds of millions of people. It's most definitely not a new standard being developed. Apart from a few odd ball countries (Denmark, Italy, Switzerland, the UK & Ireland), CEE 7/7 plugs fit everywhere else.

Ignoring the UK system, the problem is that the Danish, Italian and some swiss outlets happily mate with a CEE 7/7 plug but make no earth/ground connection.

The UK system's not compatable with CEE 7/7, but for the sake of similicity it'd be handy if it were to be replaced.

As for the Israeli system, I have no idea what they're up to!
Adopting CEE 7/7 is the only decision that would make any sense. It may even be possible to make a CEE 7/7 compatable outlet that also accepts the exsisting Israeli system's plugs.

Israel however, doesn't have to do anything to EU standards if it doesn't want to.


It's not as complicated as it sounds in Europe.
Also, with non-grounded appliances, the 2-pin plugs fit everywhere (except the uk and ireland)


Also, you have to realise that the "French" (CEE 7/5) and "German" (CEE 7/4) [schuko] socket outlets are both fully compatable with CEE 7/7 plugs. It doesn't matter which type of outlet is used.


CEE 7/7 plug + CEE 7/4 outlet (Schuko)


French Type outlet (CEE 7/5)
The CEE 7/7 plug also mates perfectly with this.
(Used in France, Belgium and several Eastern European countries)

So, basically there's no problem other than in the non CEE 7/7 countries, which are very much in the minority.


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-05-2005).]

I'm not that sure. I've done it the other way round without any trouble. The screws have exactly the same position an roughly the same diameter (European boxes use wood screws, but UK screws work).

Schuko plugs ddon't fit Italian and Swiss sockets because of the pin diameter (4.8mm vs. 4mm). Italian 16A plugs have 4.8mm pins but the pins are spaced further apart.

C-H,
I actually had to look at your website to see what sort of plug they use in Israel.
I can't say I've seen one of them plugs before.
Is it only used in Israel?.

When they came on site from the software company Mercury, they all had those odd plugs.

They all seemed to not need an adaptor set, in Belgium: the laptop rechargers *did* indeed have funny plugs, but they fit in good old 16a nontheless.

@ Mike
Yes, it is only used in Israel and Palestine.

Ouch yes, I could imagine the flat pins of an israeli plug without earth might fit Schuko or French socktes... but the contact will be pretty bad! The next time I'm at the electrical workshop at school I'll have a try (the teacher has all kinds of plugs to show the students).

I'd be in favour of dropping Schuko in favour of the french system as it's polarisable and 100% compatable with all modern plugs... Just drop CEE 7/4 completely in favour of CEE 7/7.

You could easily polarise non-grounded plugs with the french system by simply adding a face plate with a single hole or having a plug that was wider at one side than the other.

You would also have to ensure that they were all installed with universal polairty across the EU on new installations.

I'm not sure if polarity on those outlets is strictly enforced in France/Belgium.



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-07-2005).]

Polarisation? Being that CEE 7/4 has never been polarised and I've been told that polarity has never been much of a concern in French wiring. I think trying to shift to a polarized standard would be a logistical nightmare. Being that polarisation of the plugs is nonexistant, all of the appliances are designed and wired so that polarity is not a concern anyway. Double pole power switches etc.

[This message has been edited by IanR (edited 10-07-2005).]

I don't think anything electrical is enforced in France, is it?

I've looked inside quite a few Moulinex kitchen appliances from the 1970s and found the switch on the blue wire, so even if you had polarized outlets all correctly wired it wouldn't make much difference.

Polarity on most of these appliances is of no consequence anyway. The motor will stay hot with the switch open, but so what? If you know enough to be poking around inside with the covers removed, you should know enough to realize that in any appliance there will be energized parts inside even though the switch is off.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-07-2005).]

Ragnar, if you can find some French-type plugs over there, I'll send you the money for covering the cost of a few of those and postage to my job's office in London. It shouldn't be much. Let me know! Thanks!!

Not sure about the other countries that use those outlets either. I think the Czech one I saw did have polarity markings though.

@Sven: The only type of plug they carry is a pack of an orange rubber heavy duty plug and trailing socket, no single plugs at our favourite supermarket. of course I can buy you some, we only have to figure out a way how to get the stuff and money around. The mail address in my profile is still valid, you could drop me a mail.

Thanks Ranger. I'll send you an e-mail!

As far as money, I can do Paypal, if you have that option.

Hmmm... Have to look into that. I've read the name mentioned at Ebay Austria, but not much more than that.
We'll find a way though, I'm sure! After all it's not like we're talking about a vast fortune... if I remember correctly that stuff is around $2+postage.

OK. I know it took enough time, but email sent.

This site has good info http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm

Ranger, I was just wondering, were you ever able to obtain those electric plugs?

Thanks fires

very interesting link you provided with all the world voltages, frequencies and plug types

thanks

Ray

Our very own C-H also has a good website which lists voltages and plug types, along with other data on TV systems, telephone connectors, etc.
http://www.global-electron.com/