I was talking to an Electrician this morning that had just come from a house where the owner had installed some single socket-outlets into the timber floor at his house.
The Electrician was asked to certify and connect all of the work in the house.
Now, what the Electrician was wondering was, is this legal?.
I said to him that the guy that installed the points, had obviously not read ECP51 (Code of Practice for Work by Owners of Residential Premises).
However, I'd beg to differ with this, considering that all new socket outlets require RCD protection these days and they also incorporate safety shutters.
Sure the guy may have mucked up, but has he?.
In commercial installations here, you see a lot of floor points in shops and offices, usually used to power vacuum cleaners and the like.
And with the types I've seen, none of them have safety shutters or RCD protection, it isn't required in Commercial installations.
It doesn't mean any less that little Johnny won't shove his Mum's car keys into the socket while she buys something at the counter.
One last thing, what's the difference between a socket-outlet mounted into the floor and a multi-box lying on top of the floor?.
Would you get away with points in the floor where you come from?.

Sure, but they have to be a special type, usually with a spring loaded watertight metal cover lid. And judging by their shape they're installed in special boxes too.

Yeah we've got plenty of floor sockets, they're a special unit though.



They're not waterproof, but you just don't install them in places where they're likely to be soaked with buckets of hot water.

Personally, I don't like them having injured my foot by stubbing my toe on one that had the lid slightly raised up when a plug was inserted.

But, if they're an absolute must i.e. you need power and there are no near-by walls or other alternatives, I guess they're an ok sollution. Just don't stub your toe!

Trumpy, I have read in the regs or the standards somewhere that socket outlets cant be mounted on a floor unless they are the specific floor-mount type, which have a higher impact resistance and a lid.

PDL makes a small, floor surface-mount bollard that allows 2 or 4 wall mount sockets to be mounted on it. These are handy when you haven't got a cavity in the floor to mount a flush floor type.

kiwi,
Don't think for a second, that I'm having a go at you because of your post above.
Yes, I've read sort of the same thing, but the quality of Electrical fittings are a lot better these days, than what they have been in the past.
The impact standards these days are more than surpassed with the majority of fittings I've used.
I even watched an Apprentice builder once, not long ago, try and destroy a PDL Double socket-outlet with his Estwing hammer, during a demolition job.
He merely dented the front of it,after 5 minutes of pounding it, I told him to stop, as it was still live.
I really can't see the need for a lid over the sockets.
Safety shutters do the same job and without a lid that will no doubt be torn off in the future.
If you've ever tried to insert a Duspol tester into a shuttered socket, it's hard enough with 2 pins, without worrying about a single pin intrusion.
I can see where the Regs are coming from though, but is it time that the Regs and Standards started moving with the current field to which they are applied?.
It would be good if they actually asked the whole Trade here (maybe via On-line Poll), instead of just a few of the highest ECANZ members on the EWRB.
BTW, unless you can find a better pic, kiwi, here is what I came up with, made more for Commercial installations.



I can't sort of picture this in the middle of my Lounge floor.

Yes Trumpy, the floor bollard types would definitely be out of place in the living room. They are for offices where they can be placed under desks and work-stations.

I can't see a reason for the lid either, the socket shutters that became mandatory in the late eighties seem to negate the need for a lid. DJK will agree too because he has injured his foot on one of these things.

I totally agree with you Trumpy when you say that the governing bodies need to consult the industry on regulatory matters.

The "online" consultation you referred to definitely worked when the EWRB tried to introduce an exam for practising licence renewals here and was quickly knocked back by the online submissions from sparkies that the EWRB asked for.

As for the floor-mount socket outlet debate though, perhaps one of the other ECN members can tell us why these sockets should have a lid and why the plastic wall-mount sockets impact rating isn't enough ? ?

I think the reason for the lid is to prevent the socket being stood on i.e. the plastic parts on the socket face might actually push out of place or crack if they had weight, from say a high heel, right in the centre of them. The NZ version, however, doesn't seem to have any plastic on the face at all.

Shutters have always been mandatory on those BS1363 sockets. So the lid's nothing to do with protecting kids from shoving something into them. They're as likely to do that with a wall socket as they are a floor socket.

As you can see all of the BS1363 sockets have a plastic part in the centre:


Even when fully metal clad

If there is a schuko or French version you'd have to have a lid or you'd fall in!



I also suspect that the lid prevents it from gathering dust and generally looking ugly too.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-08-2005).]

Thats right DJK, the flush floor mount socket outlets in NZ are made of die-cast metal.

The question here is : Can our plastic wall mount socket outlets withstand the impacts experienced by the floor mount sockets ? ?

I think not. The plastic wall mount sockets incorporate a switch which would easily be dislodged by a high-heel ( good scenario DJK ! ) or even worse, a couch leg with 3 people on it.

I agree with Trumpy that the plastic face of the socket is up to the task, but I think the switches are the achilles heel.

Floor mount sockets don't have switches.

As for the lid, DJK suggested that they keep dust off the contacts. It would make sense that clean socket outlet contacts function better than dust-covered contacts.

Next visit to my saw-doctor, I'll get a pic of a French method of a 'floor' supply. Stand by to be aghast-ificated!
Alan.

"aghast-ificated" huh?

Ian,
English humor; take an adjective, (like aghast), and add -ific- and a verb ending- thus creating a new verb!- aghastificated, meaning to be filled with concern! Others in this genre- disconglomerateificate meaning to dismantle, or spifflicate meaning to hit someone hard. Or just add a verb ending to an adjective as in "deaded". 'Deaded' means lightly killed (!) and comes from a British radio series called the Goon Show, from the 1950s. This crazy show unleashed Peter Sellars, ( of Inspector Cluseau/ Pink Panther fame ), on an unsuspecting world, and was a model for the more sophisticated Monty Python lunacies of the 70S.
Written almost exclusively by the late Spike Milligan, the Goon Show is, I believe, still listenable to on the internet. Google "Goon Show BBC Radio 7" will get you there, but it may not tickle American humor buds- many English people didn't get it either!
Spike was a very funny man, and has on his tombstone, in gaelic;

"I told you I was ill!"

Hope this helps!

Alan
PS. It's on tonight, 14OO EST, 1900 BST

A taster:
Neddy Seagoon takes Dartmoor Prison, ( a huge brooding granite penetentiary set on the moors in Devon), hitches it to a horse, and leaving a cardboard replica in its place, sails to France, seeking the legendary Chateau d'If.
Some idiot tunnels out in an escape bid halfway across the English Channel.....




[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 07-12-2005).]

I once knew a person who loved to make spurious allegations. What, pray tell, is the noun for such a person? Alligator, of course:-)

Well,
Being like I am.
I had to ask for the address of this guy and I wanted to see what he had done.
Also the guy had no power, so they sent me to re-connect him. {I'll find out who it was that sent me too!}
What he had guys, was single un-switched points of the PDL 600 Series, used for nothing more than lamps.
The lamps having switches in the cords.
Original Electrician had fitted out and finished the switch-board, nothing un-toward.
I got under the floor and checked the wiring under there, pretty neat actually!.
I went and called the Inspector and he said connect it, so I did and there was an al-mighty BANG at the meter box on the front of the house as I put the fuse in at the road.
It was not a good sight to see, I had to rip a good part of his newly wall-papered wall away with a claw-hammer and shove a Fire Extinguisher in there.
You should have seen the look on the guys face, when I said "Excuse me, Sir, there might be a fire in your wall, do you mind if I chop it to bits to find it!". Damn!
One short circuit eh, I could hear it in there too.
Luckily I'd called the Fire Brigade.
And Yes they are still taking me to task about that one.
I would bame it on the boy, but I didn't have one!.

"English humor; take an adjective, (like aghast), and add -ific- and a verb ending- thus creating a new verb!- aghastificated, meaning to be filled with concern!"
I figured so, was just beng a bit of a smart arse

"Monty Python lunacies of the 70S.
but it may not tickle American humor buds- many English people didn't get it either!"

"Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, But I don't like Spam!"

Monty Python is like a religion. I may be a yank but I can still appreciate Brittish humour. Mum is a scot, a Wild MacRae of Kintail. As such, I still have a lot of family around Glasgow.

Actually 1900 BST is 1400 EDT. But then I don't want to be accused of pedantification!

John,
Aren't Allegations the teeth marks left by the same?.

Sounds like you just had "one of those days" Trumpy. At least you found the exact position of the short ! I think its about time for another one of those " Describe your DAY FROM HELL" threads.

As for your mates floor sockets, if they havent got a switch then they must be fine. Like you said, the modern plastics are very tough and I think they are probably more impact resistant than some of the die-cast "sh*t-metals".

Its a very American idea to have floor-sockets for table lamps which are switched at the door-way for living areas. These coupled with wall lights are very nice in living areas.

If I ever win Lotto and can afford to build my own house then that would be how I would wire my living area lights.

That Spam sketch! There's a brief second in that, where a cardboard effigy is wheeled past camera to bulk out the customers in the Spam cafe. Eric Idle's classic line;
"Hello Mrs Cutout!" is still one of my favourites.
Your Mum may remember another sketch involving a stony-broke Scots poet* on the scrounge- ( "Cud ye lend us a fiver?" ), with another classic Python line;
"Wah's twentee pooonds tae the bluddy Midland Bank!?"

* Based on William McGonagall, a Scots poet generally recognised as the 'World's Worst Poet', totally unfettered by any ideas of rhyme, scan or length of lines and one of my 19th C. heros. He wrote about everyday things, most famously;
"Oh, Wonderful Railway Bridge o'er the Silvery Tay,
Which shall stand for many a long day..."
His epithet on this 'engineering masterpiece' was rather short lived. It was poorly designed and built, and collapsed in a storm with a train on it, (the Tay Bridge Disaster.) Undaunted, McGonagall later starts a new poem, but is more cautious;
"Oh, Wonderful new Railway Bridge o'er the Silvery Tay
"And it looks quite strong, I must say."
Poor as a kirk-mouse, William sent a copy of each of his poems to Queen Victoria, who had a Palace at Balmoral. These had the Royal Family in stitches, and they were all read avidly. Eventually, McGonagall received an invitation to take tea with Her Majesty at Balmoral. Being a poor scot, McGonagall WALKED right across Scotland from Dundee to attend, but was met by a garrulous Porter at the Lodge Gate who told him to clear off!
So, William walked home again!
William visited New York in 1887, and died in 1902, aged 72.
Alan


[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 07-18-2005).]

I didn't quite remember Mcgonagall's prose aright, -it's been the best part of 40 years since reading it. http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk
gives the full story of the life and works this wonderful character- worth a look as he refers to the original Brooklin Railway Bridge in his ode to the new Tay Bridge.
Alan