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Posted By: stevesloan Part P - 07/23/04 09:54 AM
Hello Gentlemen,

Just a quick note to inform you that the new Part P of the Building regulations has finally been published and is available to look at on www.odpm.gov.uk/building-regulations came out yesterday)

A little light reading for us all!

Kind regards

Steve

{ Edited for link -- Paul }

[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-25-2004).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P - 07/23/04 08:33 PM
Steve's link seems to have gone a little haywire.

Try this one (PDF document, about 1.4MB):

Approved Part P
Posted By: teach Re: Part P - 07/23/04 10:13 PM
Hi everyone...
Ive just read this p document and am happy with it appart from this passage. On page 7 under "general" it states....
A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow: a. The technical rules described in the body of BS7671:2001,or an equivalent standard approved by a member of the EEA.....
My question is this, who are the EEA and what are their standard?
Finally I have read a lot of negative things on here about part p. I wonder how anyone would complain when it attempts to:
1. Deter DIY
2. Outlaw unlicenced/diluted electricians.
3. By removing the above competition, prices must soar.
I know you may think "Nope it will not work, because of a, b, and c", but it cant stay as it is, surely not. Thanks for letting me rant!!
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P - 07/24/04 02:24 PM
EEA = European Economic Area, which is the previously 15, now 25 European Union countries plus a few other places which are not part of the EU, such as Norway.

In other words, you can follow BS7671/IEE Regs., or wire to French standards, German standards, or now even Latvian standards if you wish!

This is something which I queried a while back. If part P of the building regs. is going to be enforced by some local council inspector, is he really going to know 25+ sets of wiring rules, even though the national standards may have been moving closer together in recent years?

Besides, if the rules are going to allow standards as diverse as Greek and Estonian, then why not the American NEC, Australian, and a few others as well?

And I'm sorry to argue this point yet again, but as far as DIY work within an existing house is concerned, I don't think it will make a scrap of difference. Who really believes that any DIY homeowner who wants to add a light or a couple of sockets is going to notify their local council?
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P - 07/25/04 12:19 PM
I sat down yesterday and read right through the document. There are still some things there which I would query, and I have to admit to being even more confused about what the law will actually be.

Much of the preamble to this document seems to be written in rather wide-ranging terms rather than saying anything specific.

Start with the part P extract on page 5:
Quote
PART P ELECTRICAL SAFETY
Design, installation, inspection and testing

P1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspecting and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.

Provision of information

P2.
Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety.

Is that it? Where is the reference to any remaining wording in the building regulations? I don't mean the rest of the waffle from the "Office of the Deputy Prime Minister," I mean actual, hard, law.

I don't see anything here which effectively says something like "Installations shall comply with BS7671 (IEE Wiring Regulations)."

Reading on a little further, the language continues to be equally non-specific.

Page 7:
Quote

Performance.

0.1
In the Secretary of State's view, the requirements will be met by adherence to the 'Fundamental Principles' for achieving safety given in BS7671 : 2001 chapter 13.

To achieve these erequirements electrical installations must be:

a. designed and installed to provide appropriate protection against mechanical and thermal damage, and so that they do not present electric shock and fire hazards to people;

b. suitably inspected and tested to verify that they meet the relevant equipment and installation standards.
Frankly, I don't give a d*** what the Secretary of State's view is on the matter. If it's not in the law, it's not enforcable. Period.

I'd be willing to bet that the Secretary of State's electrical knowledge extends about as far as wiring a plug or changing a light bulb anyway.

Carry on to the next section:
Quote
General

0.2
A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow:

a. the technical rules described in the body of BS7671 : 2001, or an equivalent standard approved by a member of the EEA that includes issuing an electrical installation certificate to the person ordering the work; and

b. guidance given in installation manuals that are consistent with BS7671 : 2001, such as

i) The IEE (Institution of Electrical Engineers) On-Site Guide;

ii) The series of IEE publications, Guidance Notes Nos. 1 to 7
Look at the wording. It doesn't say "Compliance with these fundamental principles shall be demonstrated by following...."

It says "A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow......" which implies that other ways of satisfying these fundamental principles would be equally acceptable.

The reference to other EEA-approved standards seems to confirm this, but again, if the only actual legal requirement is to comply with these rather broad fundamental principles, then I could wire my house to American standards, Australian standards, or any other system I care to mention.

The whole thing seems to be very vague. Or am I missing something?



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-25-2004).]
Posted By: chipmunk Re: Part P - 07/25/04 03:59 PM
Paul, surely this is a good thing? (being able to wire to the NEC would mean no ring circuits [Linked Image] )
Posted By: uksparky Re: Part P - 07/25/04 06:04 PM
Quote
The whole thing seems to be very vague. Or am I missing something?

[Linked Image] No, you are not missing anything. I have read it as well.

Frankly it is typical of this Government's attitude; as long as it looks good on paper it will fool people into thinking it is good. A [reasonably] detailed look into anything this shower has introduced since '97 will soon make one realise how toothless 90% of it is.

This Part P intro is a bloody shambles. It will be almost impossible to police effectively in terms of covering those areas that need covering, and will be shot full of corner-cutters and it'll-be-ok halfwits.

I don't suppose the Sec of State's knowledge extends beyond turning a light on... Even then he would have to force legislation through Parliament to have all switches checked for UK manufacture and configuration before issuing them with an ID card that allows them to operate in the UK on behalf of a 'law-abiding' UK citizen. Maybe at that point he might use the switch - if his guide dog hasn't already turned the light on for him!

I suspect that we will end up with a load of individually interpretable legislation that will be enforced as and when it suits.

[Linked Image] ...rant over.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P - 07/25/04 06:46 PM
Quote
before issuing them with an ID card that allows them to operate in the UK on behalf of a 'law-abiding' UK citizen.
LOL! [Linked Image]

Don't even get me started on that one! If he thinks I'm going to hand over even more money to this bunch of clowns (no offense Bozo! [Linked Image]) so he can issue me with a card that tells me who I am, he can think again. [Linked Image]

(For non-Brits who are now totally confused, go here .

By the way, I just corrected Steve's original link at the top of the thread as I realized why it wasn't working (case sensitive!). Follow that link and you can see plenty more approved baloney (excuse me, approved documents) for various parts of the building regs.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P - 07/25/04 07:00 PM
Quote
Paul, surely this is a good thing? (being able to wire to the NEC would mean no ring circuits
Yippee! [Linked Image] Actually, considering the amount of 120V gear I have around here, installing a 240 to 120/240V transformer and rewiring my house to American standards wouldn't be such a bad idea! Don't let the ODPM know, will you? [Linked Image]

By the way, why do all these government departments now have to put a sub-title under their names that sounds like some old Soviet-style propaganda?

"Office of the Deputy Prime Minister -- Creating sustainable communities."

"Home Office -- Building a safe, just and tolerant society."

Yeah, right..... [Linked Image]
Posted By: uksparky Re: Part P - 07/25/04 07:47 PM
LMAO @ Paul!!

I guess they need to remind us why they exist from time to time - coz they sure as hell don't show their existence! [Linked Image]

As you so rightly say... "Yeah...RIGHT"!
Posted By: stevesloan Re: Part P - 07/26/04 12:35 PM
I can see that Part P is of "topical interest" to say the least! One of my main areas of concern lies with just what criteria will the groups running the Competent persons scheme, set for persons to join? I very much hope that it will not be a situation whereby you spend your money and your in! There are some firms who think that putting all their operatives through the 16th edition regs is enough - without them being first and foremost Electricians. What do guys think? (sorry for my troublesome link!)
Posted By: aland Re: Part P - 07/27/04 10:08 PM
Steve, just received the application pack for Part P-Competent person scheme from the ECA. The criteria is exactly the same as for becoming a member of NICEIC. You need the following:
1. A copy of BS 7671 and the Memorandum of Guidance on The Electricity at Work Act
2. Health and Safety Policy Statement with Risk Assessments.
3. Evidence that you use written contracts with clients.
4. Evidence of document control, ie demonstrate that you can and do fill in completion certs, test certs and the like.
5. Prove that you have and can use all the required test equipment with calibration certs and amethod of checking for accuracy.
6. Evidence that you maintain a complaints procedure with appropriate documentation.
7. Applicants will need to nominate at least one of their personnel to be the Qualified Supervisor.
8. Hold a public liability insurance policy for a minimum of £2 million.
9. Onec Part P comes into effect you will have to offer clients a warranty cover on all work.
10. Be prepared to have an on site assessment covering a minimum of two installations assessment to cover compliance with the building regulations and in particular BS.7671.
Not forgeting your cheque for £634.50 for the first Qualified Supervisor and £282 for each additional one. All inc Vat of course.

Quote from bottom of Fee Sheet, From Jan 2005, it is a requirement of this scheme that all certificated firms shall provide a declaration to BRE Certification for each completed and notifiable installation (within 14 days of completion of the work), to confirm that the work conforms to BS7671 and Parts 4 and 7 of the building regs. This information will be placed on a database and shared with Government,Local Authorities and the Electrcal Contractors Association. Details of the notification process and the scale of fees will be provided by BRE Certification in December 2004.
All fees will be collected by the ECA on behalf of BRE Certification Ltd.

Did I not say it would be a Nice little earner for the boys. Keeps the pensions topped up. Be interesting to see if B&Q and the Electrical Wholsalers will be required to declare who they sell all the electrical equipment to at weekends. Silly old sod aint I.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P - 07/30/04 12:21 PM
Quote
7. Applicants will need to nominate at least one of their personnel to be the Qualified Supervisor.
As a matter of interest, how do they apply that to a one-man outfit? Can you supervise yourself?


Quote
Not forgeting your cheque for £634.50 for the first Qualified Supervisor and £282 for each additional one.
Are you hinting that the primary motivation here might be financial? Surely not! [Linked Image]

Quote
All inc Vat of course.
Ah yes, even though most of those registering and likely to be VAT-registered and will just claim the tax back anyway. Got to involve a few more pointless transaction to keep the VAT pen-pushers going. The few registering who aren't VAT-registered and will have to pay the VAT is just a little bonus to the government funds. Not that I'm being cynical, you understand....... [Linked Image]


Quote
Quote from bottom of Fee Sheet, From Jan 2005, it is a requirement of this scheme that all certificated firms shall provide a declaration to BRE Certification for each completed and notifiable installation (within 14 days of completion of the work), to confirm that the work conforms to BS7671 and Parts 4 and 7 of the building regs.
Er.... But haven't we already established that according to the new building regs. there is no requirement to follow BS7671?
Posted By: aland Re: Part P - 07/30/04 09:10 PM
Paul
Quote:
As a matter of interest, how do they apply that to a one-man outfit? Can you supervise yourself?
--------------------------------------------
Yes if your a one man band, you aspire to the roll of qualifying supervisor amongst other things, with a real value £634.50.

Quote:
Are you hinting that the primary motivation here might be financial? Surely not!
-------------------------------------------
Paul, would I be so synical?

Quote:
Er.... But haven't we already established that according to the new building regs. there is no requirement to follow BS7671?
-------------------------------------------
Paul,
You call it what you want, just post the cheque on the due date and all will be fine!
Posted By: aland Re: Part P - 08/04/04 11:24 PM
Just found this one on the Voltium web site.
Quote
-------------------------------------
"I am a Building Control Surveyor with a District Council. I take great offence personally and professionally at your suggestion that electrical contractors should "Expect long delays!" if they have to get work approved by building control.

Most Local Authority Building Control teams are highly professional and are very quick to respond to site inspection requests. Generally, requests made before 10am are guaranteed same day visits. Timed appointments can also normally be made. How many electricians (or suppliers) could manage that!

I don't understand why you are trying to scare electricians into membership of self-certification schemes. Promote them by all means, but for the right reasons, not by using fictional rubbish about a service you clearly have no experience of."

The official stance of the LABC is below:

The LABC has stated that "if someone is intending to carry out electrical work and wishes to use the local authority to certify the work as conforming to Part P of the Building Regulations, then they should submit a Building Notice to the relevant Local Authority Building Control Office and their request to inspect and check the work for compliance will be responded to within 48 hours. There will be a charge for this service which is dependent on the value of the electrical work carried out."
-------------------------------------------
Appears to be no need to register with anyone if you care to let the local authority inspect.
Posted By: PaulCornwall Re: Part P - 08/05/04 07:09 PM
I have just had my technical inspection from the ECA and things are looking good for me to be a member,,

i have to say once part p is in force i am looking forward to putting my rates up and reaping the rewards.. lots of contractors around my area are not going to bother to register for part p..

i have also heard that the local council will use registed electrical contractors to inspect the work of those who are not.... dont know if this is true .. if so looking forward to being a nominated contractor,, and charging accordingly.... loads of money..

the thing is it has its faults but it is a start for us to get rid of the cowboys and diy'ers doing there extensions etc..

I have not long quoted a job,, a new house timber framed,, the customer rang me to say i was the lucky electrician to win the contract and would like me to start asap.. i said yes would be in 2 weeks,, ok he said.. 2 days later he rang me to say he would not require me because he would be doing the job with his nephew,,,, cheers mate.. hope you put nails in all your stuffin cables
Posted By: pauluk Re: Part P - 08/08/04 11:18 AM
Quote
submit a Building Notice to the relevant Local Authority Building Control Office and their request to inspect and check the work for compliance will be responded to within 48 hours. There will be a charge for this service which is dependent on the value of the electrical work carried out."
I wonder how much the charge is going to be?

Quote
i have to say once part p is in force i am looking forward to putting my rates up and reaping the rewards.
I'm not so sure that increasing rates would be that beneficial to you. If you're going to price yourself out of the ballpark against non-registered sparkies then you may end up losing work. If a non-registered sparky plus the cost of the inspection comes to less than hiring somebody who's registered, then what's the point?

Quote
the thing is it has its faults but it is a start for us to get rid of the cowboys and diy'ers doing there extensions etc..
But how? [Linked Image] Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting people to understand the error of their ways and improve the safety of their electrical systems, but how is part P going to stop bad DIY work?

DIY extensions will just be done by homeowners and the local council will know nothing about them. We still have a firm grasp on the "Englishman's home is his castle" principle in this country, despite the government's attempts to convince us otherwise.

Sorry, but I'm with Alan on this one. I see this whole scheme as just a badly organized mess designed to make it look as though our "caring" government is addressing some "problem." It's just another bureaucracy-boosting con to extract money, nothing more. [Linked Image]
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