I suppose that there is little to stop electricians from EU member countries working on electrical installations in Britain, providing that they can get the work. As far as I am concerned, they are very welcome. However, the whole idea of EU membership was to ensure free, relatively unrestricted trade of goods and services between members. Currently in Britain, it may be considerably difficult to get a job with an installation company unless you have the ECS card (old JIB electricians card). I suppose that this is entirely reasonable, but does any one know what foreign cards or qualifications etc are accepted as an alternative? Indeed from a reciprocal point of view what restrictions are placed on British sparks seeking work in other EU countries?

All you need to do is say your a spark and sit the C&G 2381 course

This has become an issue since Sweden joined the EU. British, Danish and German electricians have worked here for companies from their home countries. Unfortunately, people who take work abroad without checking what the local code says tend to be the same people who pay little attention to code at home. This has meant a few very sub-standard installs. The authorities now stress that you need to have a Swedish license to work here and appear unwilling to look the other way. I have no idea how hard it would be to get a license for a foreign sparky.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 05-19-2004).]

Sore point with some people. As you said, the whole idea of this free trade and free movement charade was supposedly to enable people to go to any EU country and live and work on the same terms as a native of that country, with extra things like recognition of other member states' qualifications thrown in to make the task easier. In theory, there was also the wonderful-sounding idea that for "fair play" the restrictions in one country should not be any greater than those in another.

Just make some inquiries about doing this in practice though, and you soon realize that the bureaucracy still wants you to jump through loads of hoops like applying for a residence card, registering for things which may not even exist in your own country, and so on.

According to all the literature, the govt. of an EU member state is obliged to recognize the equivalent qualification of another EU country. There is some govt. organization here (I forget its name) which was set up to assess foreign qualifications and issue a U.K.-equivalent certificate. Presumably there are similar offices in other EU countries.

By the way, they operate with non-EU qualifications as well, and when I asked about a U.K. equivalent of U.S. certificates they replied that they couldn't help due to the specialized nature of the subject matter involved! Now if I'd asked about U.K. equivalents for an Outer Mongolian qualification in sheep herding, I could understand it, but we're talking about American electronics certificates here.

There was a wild discussion on that subject some time ago at de.sci.ing.elektrotechnik, and they came to the conclusion that in Germany it's _easier_ for a foreign electrician to work than for a German one. Less restrictions. Doesn't even need a license. Some people claimed they saw pretty substandard wiring done by Dutch sparkies close to the border.

Sub-standard by German standards, or sub-standard by Dutch standards?

I see this sort of thing becoming another problem with all this free movement, recognition of qualifications, etc.

Look at the proposals to introduce wiring into U.K. building regulations that we discussed some months ago. The documents suggested that wiring should comply with BS7671 (IEE Wiring Regs.) or other EEC equivalents. With the expansion of the EU this month, that could mean a U.K. building inspector having to know not only BS7671 but also the Estonian wiring rules, if indeed there are any!

By German standards. One thing I remember that shocked the german sparkies was the fact they use Wirenuts over there instead of their oh-so-loved Wagos.
BTW, yesterday I stumbled over an Italian wirenut, gotta be the most scary crap I've ever seen. No spring inside, just a flimsy very fine thread, no idea how that's supposed to grip solid conductors. Maybe that's why they always use stranded...

I agree that only the national regs should be allowed in each country. Otherwise it becomes unworkable.

One example is the difference in earthing systems. Denmark uses mostly TT since the neutral in the network isn't properly earthed, while Sweden only allows TN and doesn't require an earth electrode. Danish electricians working in Sweden have managed to set up systems without working earth. I'd be surprised if Swedish electricans haven't made the opposite mistake in Denmark.

The only other code that would do would be European Wiring Regulations written specifically to be applicable to all member countries. It would be a rather thick book with national deviations, comments and warnings. I don't think it is a workable idea in the near future.

I agree with you about the national regs for each country, but how does the rest of Europe compare to the UK. are th standards mandatoryor as here? Only recomended codes of practice. Until part P that is and thereby ahngs another can of worms, Cant wait.

C-H,
I must say I agree with you there,
there's no need for more confusion.

Alan,

I of course can't answer for all EU countries, but for the Scandinavian countries it is law or standard. It seems laws are replaced by standards only. In theory, you could use any standard as long as you can show that it is as good as or better than the national standard. But try convincing a court that an alternative standard is better than the national standard...

C-H, Take your point, but tell me if I am wrong, if something is not set in tablets of stone is that not the reason why we tend to see so much more electrical work that's below the standard rather than above the standard. Is electrical installation work a weeekend D.I.Y. pastime in the Scandinavian countries as it is in the U.K?

Yes, but unlike the UK a license is required for electrical work. We are talking 1000+ hours of work as an appy and an exam to get it. Happily ignored by many of course, but it means rough traders can have their license revoked.

Electrical systems in Europe vary quite a bit from place to place. There are various legacy colour codes, various legacy earthing/grounding systems in place.

While modern installations are broadly quite similar right across the EU thanks to cenelec harmonisation, if you open up an older installation it can look like something from another planet.

Unlike most other professions there is a real need for electricians to know about the system they're dealing with.

I think the simplest sollution would be to introduce a short-course system in each country. So for example, if an Austrian electrician wanted to work in Ireland we could presume that he/she knows the basics. A course could be offered that teaches about the local code here in Ireland and highlights the quirks one might expect to find in the system. Once that course is completed he/she would be qualified to work in Ireland.

I don't think it's fair to expect a qualified electrician to completely retrain for no reason nor do I think it's safe to let people work on unfamilar systems without learning about them first.

These older systems are going to be around for quite a while and it's not really practical/safe to just pretend that they don't exsist.

BTW: I am all in favour of harmonising the EU on one single, sensible electrical system. I think a hybrid system taking the best ideas from all of the various national codes could be great.


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 05-23-2004).]

DJK, I agree with your every point, do you think any of them will come to fruition in our lifetime. Certainly not mine any way I am 61,I look back at some of the changes that have taken place in my time as a contractor. Its been slow, the industry seems to resent change no matter what the reason. Remember the proposal in the seventies to have a harmonised socket outlet. Did it die or was it killed?

Good point on a "short course." If the only training for a particular country is a full course of study starting with the basics, electricians from other countries are soon going to get fed-up with having to go over Ohm's Law and similar "kids' stuff."

Aland,
Do you remember the proposal back in the mid-1970s for a standardized plug with three flat pins? They were arranged parallel, the center earth pin slightly offset, and rated 16A. The design would have allowed two such outlets in the space of a British single-gang plate. There were even photos in magazines, so I assume that prototypes were made.

I don't remember ever hearing any more about them. No doubt the IEE firmly rejected the idea because it would have meant abandoning fused plugs and ring circuits. (Regulars will already know that I'm not exactly a supporter of rings! ).

Pauluk, yes I do remember the proposed socket, in fact I am sutch a sado I still have a copy of a booklet published by M.K. detailing the virtues of the Worldwide plug and socket system. Apparently the first discussions took place as long ago as 1966 at an IEEC meeting held in of all places Tel Aviv. It took ten years of swanning around the world to different countries before any sort of a firm proposal could be agreed on. The agreement was to vote on three proposals
1) The CEE system based on the Europlug concept.
2) A Flat-pin proposal with sleeved pins.
3) A Flat-pin proposal with a recessed socket.
I think that the commitee members are probably talking about it if the truth is known. One of the old cherries thats good for a delegate meeting in some distant resort for many a year. I am an old synic arnt I. Sorry

With the addition of more EU members and with CENELECs expansion eastwards it's very unlikely that anything other than CEE 7/7 will be adopted as standard in Europe. The reality is that apart from a handfull of countries either the German or French (or compatable) outlet is used and the CEE 7/7 plug fits both.

While there's a technical argument, due to ring circuits to keep BS1363, I really can't see the logic of keeping the other non-fused radial-based sockets in use.

Of the other systems 2 are polarised when used with a grounded plug, i.e. Denmark and Switzerland. They could be replaced with the French system giving them compatability with CEE 7/7.

and the Italian system is easily replacable with Schuko.

Personally, I think that the Danish and Swiss systems are potentially leathal as they're fully capable of accepting a grounded CEE 7/7 (or old French/German) plug without completing the earth/ground connection.

The Italian system's 10A outlets won't accept a 16A schuko plug and the 16A outlets have wider pin spacing so also won't accept a grounded CEE 7/7 plug.

Interestingly, before CEE 7/7 the French and German systems were safely incompatable.

The old french plugs are fully round and won't fit into a Schuko outlet and the German plugs won't fit into a French outlet as the protruding pin prevents them from being inserted.

Interestingly, if you bypass the shuttering on a UK/Irish BS1363 socket, which is very easy to do on most of them (just push something into the earth recepticle), you can easily insert a 2-pin European plug.

I've even seen a few schuko plugs jammed in! The pins are almost too fat to fit in, but if you give them a good push they fit!

More modern MK outlets use 2 and 3 way shuttering which makes that impossible as all 3 pins must be inserted in the correct sequence.

However, I've had to cut schuko plugs off IT equipment, coffee machines, and even a commercial display fridge as they were being used in BS1363 sockets! i.e. without any form of earthing!!

This tends to happen, particularly, where the applience is rarely plugged out e.g. a coffee machine or a piece of office equipment and thanks to the switches on most Irish sockets you can even isolate the applience without removing the plug.

If it's just a 2-pin Europlug or a contour plug it's not too bad, particularly in Ireland, where 16/20A radials are normal. However where it's grounded schuko it's potentially leathal.

In the UK it's potentially a serious fire hazard as you could be plugging your applience directly into a circuit only protected by a 32A breaker or even worse, a rewirable fuse!

I still think that BS1363 could easily be replaced by a socket that's compatable with CEE 7/7 and fused. All you'd have to do is include a simple cartridge fuse carrier on the socket that accepts either a 13 or 16A BS1362 fuse.

I can't understand IEE's polarisation argument. British appliences all comply with various european standards and should be quite safe working on a non-polarised supply. However, we could adopt the French outlet and keep some degree of polarisation on class 1 appliences.

The UK already allows various unpolarised connectors.

i.e. "figure of 8" connectors so commonly used to connect small class 2 appliences like radios, videos, satellite boxes, audio equipment etc.

We also now allow the use of a permanently fitted plug adaptor which can only be removed with a tool. This pretty much encases a 2-pin Europlug inside a slightly oversized BS1363 plug. However, there is no way of knowing what the polarity of that plug is as the Europlug could have been inserted either way.

Anyway I guess there's no point in ranting on The technical committees tend to be a BIT nationalistic in their approach and I doubt that will ever change!

As I recall from the pictures (I was only about 10 at the time!) this is the option they chose.

Like the quote C-H posted a while ago, about a committee meeting in the "typical French department of Guadeloupe...."

At 38, I think I've become an old cynic as well.