ECN Forum
Posted By: C-H International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/09/03 07:28 PM
I know djk has touched on this subject on some occasions: International D-I-Y store chains.

In Sweden we have Bauhaus, who prefers to sell German equipment (with signs in German!). Therefore, you find some odd pieces of electrical equipment without a market in Sweden on their shelves.

There are some Swedish chains with operations in other countries. They too stock the same goods in different countries, but it's not as apparent since I'm in Sweden. It is probably be more noticeable in a store in Denmark or Norway.

What is the situation in your country? I understand that Ireland has the same situation (or worse).

(Now we also have the German food chain Lidl, which even imports the milk from Germany!)
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/09/03 07:53 PM
C-H,

We have a few of the large British DIY chains here B&Q, Homebase etc. and also a few of the large electrical retailers Dixons etc along with catalogue shop, Argos.

For most things it's not a big deal but there are a few differences and some products on sale that have no market at all here like I've seen rewirable fuse wire and Wylex plug-in MCBs!! We have never had that system. Yet they didn't stock Diazed/Neozed fuses, still used in a LOT of Irish distribution boards.

Also it's common to see Cooker Control switches complete with BS1363 socket which are illegal to install here. Same with BS546 sockets intended for use with plug-in lamps controlled by a light switch. completely illegal if used on a lighting circuit without RCD.
MK Cooker Control Unit complete with socket.
[Linked Image from mkelectric.co.uk]

The main area I've noticed problems with is telecommunications equipment. Often these stores just ignore the fact that the Irish phone network isn't the same as BT.

You regularly see UK chains selling BT wall sockets and extension reels!!! There is absolutely no market for these here it makes no sense and people seem to endlessy return them. Admittedly they seem to have gradually realised this makes no sense and either don't stock them at all or stock RJ11 equivlants.

They normally supply a small little UK - Irish adaptor which basically converts the BT plug to RJ11 and includes a ringing capacitor to deal with the 3rd wire ringing system used in the UK.
(looks like this)

[Linked Image from lindy.com]

However, even with that many phones still don't really work properly connected to an Irish line.

Caller ID may not work as the BT system has a unique way of doing things. Before caller ID information is sent it inverts the polarity on the line. Irish lines send long burst of ringing then the caller ID data.

Callwaiting ID is not necessarily compatable either, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.

BT phones incorrectly adapted to an irish line can do weird things including short circuiting the phone line by connecting A to B wires, refuse to ring, ring continiously or tinkle everytime someone picks up / hangs up a phone!

Apparently the way the ringing signal is applied to a line here is quite different. I don't really know exactly how it's done but I know that over here it's usually 75 V 25Hz applied out of phase on both legs, presumably the A+B wires. PaulUK might know what exactly that means! as I am not exactly sure how this is normally done or how it's done in the UK. The pattern is a long burst of ringing followed by UK style double rings.

Strangely enough US / Canadian phones (fixed line ones not cordless) often end up on the Irish market and appear to be 100% compatable with the Irish network. Caller ID works, callwaiting ID and they are normal 2-wire RJ11 phones. Even "Flash" seems to work fine in place of the normal "R" button.

Also it's not too unusual to find that a TV is sold with a UHF only tuner. This is completely useless here as we use PAL I on both VHF and UHF and on analogue Cable we even go as far as using "Hyperband" which basically gives you extra channels by using all the VHF & UHF bands. (Used extensively here.. like at least 1 out of 3 homes)

----

In the past we used to find all sorts of problems with 240V specified equipment particularly if it was used on a 220V supply in a rural area where the supply voltage might have occasionally dipped towards the lower end of the 220V tollerance levels.

It was a particular problem for imported gas boilers as they'd occasionally refuse to spark!

at least the common EU 230V specification is helping a little there!

----

Most other Irish specifications arn't too different.

except fixed cable ...

We use Striped (yellow/green), Blue (N). Brown (L) for single phase fixed cable

and now the standard Cenelec 3 phase cable colours too.

Supplying UK cable colours is totally illegal but it has happened in DIY chains.

Black has been banned in the fixed cabling colour scheme for some time as the seemed to be anticipating its use as a phase colour in the new 3 phase system.


(in the old system Black was neutral, in the 3-phase system it is now one of the phases)
---


Typical Irish Phone connection point:

[Linked Image]

Typical British phone connection point:
[Linked Image from brymar.co.uk]

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-09-2003).]
Posted By: PaulCornwall Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/10/03 04:39 PM
one thing i thought of the other day, i was installing a light fitting for a customer, who purchased it from a diy store,, it had an ES lamp holder, here in the UK the live has to go on the centre pin and not the thread.

in the instructions there is no mention of this, so it would be nice shock for mr diy,er to connect the live to the thread and then place his fingers on it while changing the lamp..
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/10/03 04:59 PM
Why would someone place their fingers on the screw base when changing a lightbulb? That's utter stupidity....

When unscrewing a bulb, you're supposed to hold it by the glass envelope!

Here in the 'states all our plug-in lamps used to be non-polarized until sometime around the 1980s....and then they started molding polarized plugs on them.

Of course that whole issue is moot when people replace the polarized plugs with standard ones.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-10-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/10/03 08:38 PM
Sven:

Relying solely on polarised plugs is absolutely stupid to start with.

There is always the possibility that the socket/outlet is wired the wrong way around (even in the UK/Ireland shock! horror!). Or that someone's managed to wire the plug the wrong way or make the connections in the applience on the wrong sides. I would think this would particularly be a risk with lamps since they're not exactly very high tech products and are often made by design companies.

As a rule of thumb always remove the plug before you stick your fingers anywhere near the supposedly neutral parts!

In Europe it's even possible that you could happen upon an old 127+127 = 220 supply [Linked Image]

Would certainly give you a bit of a blast if you touched either phase.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/10/03 10:39 PM
Over here in New Zealand, we don't really have any International DIY chain-stores, but, the ones we do have (Mitre 10, Building Depot and Placemakers)are all making a killing from the weekend builder.
I've been down at the DIY store the odd Saturday morning and seen people walk in and grab all the tools (mainly Power tools) required to put up a fence or so forth.
A few of these places have little leaflets explaining things like, how to erect a fence, build a timber framed wall, even how to remove a wall safely from your house (this has caused a few disasters!), but they don't go into a lot of detail.
But it makes you wonder though, If you have to read a piece of paper to find out how a job is done, are you really up to the task?.
NZ was built on people that had a can-do attitude and people here in the 50's and 60's had the practical skills to tackle the most difficult of jobs, lots of people at the time built their own houses, unfortunately, these days a lot of people here can't even use a hammer to save themselves. [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/11/03 03:09 PM
Builders are DAMN expensive here as are plumbers and electricians so a lot more people take things into their own hands.
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/11/03 09:08 PM
B&Q and the other big DIY chains are found in most big cities here, and many of them carry a rack of how-to leaflets on various topics: How to build a patio, how to wire an extension socket, how to plumb-in a new bath, etc.

DIY has really become a big thing in Britain recently, if all the TV shows dedicated to it are any indication. The shows have been around a long time, but these days there are dozens of them. (*)

DJK,
I guess the UK-specific devices in Ireland are the consequence of being a nation of 3.5 million right next to door one of 55 million. But I wonder why places would stock items if nobody asks for them? The cooker/socket unit for example, might not be allowed under Irish wiring rules, but could it be that many people like to install them anyway?

C-H,
We have Lidl stores in England too. My local has quite good deals on canned and bottled food and drink. They also sell electrical goods from time to time: Cheap portable TVs and computer monitors were on offer last time I was in there.

(*) An aside: I was watching a clip from an old DIY show (early 1960s) the other week, in which they were showing someone how to take that old-fashioned Victorian door with its fancy inlaid panels etc. and turn it into a nice modern door, with smooth finish and new knobs. Today's shows typically show how how to reclaim old Victorian doors and restore them to their former glory!

What goes around comes around, I guess. [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/12/03 12:50 PM
Paul:

Supprisingly enough very few people here would attempt to install a cooker from scratch here at all. I would think that they may be stocked as standard as they're stocked in their UK stores. Electricians always simply fit a flush double poll 45 amp switch so you can't really retrofit a cooker control socket. However, there might be a tiny market for replacing broken exsisting sockets. If you ask an electrician to do it you can guarentee it will be removed and replaced with a switch.

Initially B&Q stocked BT phone extension reels which don't even physically fit into a socket here.

I think it's simply a question of over-standardisation of supply to stores. A manager sees "phone cords" and "cooker switches" and gets those sent.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/12/03 05:01 PM
Here in Austria we have Quester, Baumax, Bauhaus and Hornbach. First 2 are Austrian companies. Don't know about Bauhaus stock, but Hornbach definitely has completely different catalogues for Austria and Germany (Look which one contains the most awful bullshit like ugly garage doors "for replacement" and where the 13A breakers cost 4 times as much as the 16A ones and you've got the German one).
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/12/03 05:35 PM
Here in the USA the two big ones that are left are Home Depot and Lowe's. These are the stores that some of us on ECN call "the big orange box" and the "big blue box" respectively. [Linked Image]

We used to have smaller ones -- Pergament (which I thought was huge until Home Depot opened a store across the street from our local), RIckel (never got a chance to go to), Martin Paints (spec. in paints, carpets, floors, some decorative lumber and light fixtures), but they all went out of business as Home Depot and Lowes expanded.

In terms of small electrical wiring devices (plugs, sockets, switches), Home Depot carries mostly Leviton and Lowes carries Cooper/Eagle.

Home Depot is the biggest of the two. Their stores are very messy and sometimes you can't find what you need when you need it. Of course, when you don't need it anymore it's there.

Lowe's keeps a tidier layout -- you don't see merchandise lying all over the floor.

Mexico has Home-Mart, although it doesn't have an entirely national presence -- there are no stores in the state of Baja California, but there are some in Quintana Roo (so if I ever visit Cancun....).


[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-12-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/12/03 10:29 PM
Stock managers not realizing what they're ordering sounds as though it may well be a feasible explanation for Irish stores carrying fittings of little or no use, although I suppose places up near the border may shift some.

I've never noticed this sort of problem in Britain: All the electrical items you'll find in the average hardware or DIY store are things which would be used here.

On telephone equipment, the only area where I've found people run into problems from time to time is with modems. I've sorted out a few cheap imports which have a BT plug on the cord, but the line is connected to the wrong pins (inner pair instead of outer).
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/13/03 12:48 AM
I've noticed BT itself does a weird thing with their phones.

They crimp on the BT connector and the RJ11 at the phone end. Then, obviously to make wiring simple they connect the phone internally to the "wrong" terminals of the RJ11 socket. So the line's carried on the 2nd pair rather than the middle pair (as would be normal in the US or Ireland) basically RJ11 wired like a BT phone plug.

The result is that if you plug a normal RJ11 cable in nothing happens as the line's not connected.

If you plug their BT cable into an Irish phone you get nothing either if you try to use it in the UK as it carries the line on the wrong RJ11 pins.
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/14/03 09:39 PM
Yes, that's a favorite trick for telephones supplied to the U.K. market. It makes for a simple straight-thru cord with the BT plug on one end and a U.S.-type modular on the other. One of the inner contacts is used as the bell feed via the capacitor in the master jack.

It would have made things much simpler if the BT plugs had been designed with the center pair for the line, but at the time this specification was laid down in the early 1980s the U.S. type jacks were not used on domestic phones here.

The "geeks" among us had them on imported modems at that time, but of course it was illegal to connect non-approved equipment to the line, so no official design was going to take that into account! [Linked Image]

I'm going off at a tangent slightly now, but one problem people have here with modems is tone recognition. I had to sort this out for someone just recently with a brand new, but no-name modem.

The modem was seeing the British double-ring tone as a busy signal and kept dropping the line and redialing. Easy enough to correct by changing the registers, but this was supplied by the big chain PC World, and supposedly with drivers and defaults for the U.K. market to make it easy to set up.
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/15/03 01:43 AM
I have never really noticed a problem with modems and the double beat ring tone however. There used to be loads of problems with the voicemail and call divertion tones here which originally were broken dial tones. They got around this by changing it to 2 different frequencies that just switch in and out so the modem still hears a continious tone but the caller hears the dial tone stepping up and down.

450Hz + 350Hz
call diversion is equal time with each tone
message waiting is the normal 450 hz tone rapidly interupted with the 350hz.

Also if you set modems to UK sometimes you had problems with recognising the ring tone here particularly in exchanges that still apply the progress tone (bebebebebebe) while they were waiting for a free modem at the ISP.

The progress tone's rarely heard on fixed line calls these days. I think it's actually being phased out under some ITU rules. I notice France Telecom seem to be using it less and less too.

Even though it's MUCH more rapid than a busy tone or a "reorder tone" ? the cheapo modems used to see it as busy.

I actually like the Irish tone system. It's extremely easy to understand compared to what i've heard elsewhere and that's not just because I'm used to it. It's just very self-explanatory.

Dialtone = continious 450Hz.
Busy = 450hz busy tone (similar to UK)
Congestion = same
The is no number unobainable tone it's always an announcement or the 3 tone dooo deee dooo.. thing.
Ring tone is same as the UK

I've found a lot of the European systems confusing and I don't like the non-warbling flat ring tones used in Europe. I prefer ours it's much more like what a phone sounds like ringing.

Even if they didn't change the actual ring pattern sent to the phones I think it would be nice if for once the rest of Europe adopted our system rather than the DIN / NF standard [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/15/03 09:54 PM
We seem to have gotten a couple more telephone related discussions the last few days, so in order to avoid hijacking this topic any further (sorry C-H!), I'll follow up in the Telephone talk thread,

Back on the DIY in general, if Ireland has places which seem to stock items that nobody would use, has anybody found big stores which for some reason don't carry common items?


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-15-2003).]
Posted By: C-H Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/16/03 12:55 PM
Yes, RCD's in the prewired panels. The chains in Sweden all have a couple of prewired panels, but only last year they began to include RCD's in some of the models. I don't know any place in a home or farm where someone could legally use the type of panel without RCD.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-16-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/16/03 02:03 PM
Generally in Ireland a consumer can't buy any serious electrical equipment other than sockets, lightswitches, minor DIY job stuff very easily.

You certainly can't buy a full distribution panel / fuse box / consumer unit in a DIY store. Electrical wholesalers will sell them but they tend to be trade-only or vet their customers pretty seriously.

Also if you install anything that requires replacing the distribution panel/fuse box it legally requires a completion certificate to be submitted to the power company.
Posted By: C-H Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/16/03 02:41 PM
You're not allowed to change anything but light switches and socket outlets without a license. Few but the electricians union care.
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/16/03 11:30 PM
Quote
I don't know any place in a home or farm where someone could legally use the type of panel without RCD.
Maybe where there's already an RCD as a separate unit? Or don't you use that arrangement in Sweden?

The panels sold in the big stores here are generally available with either a main switch or main RCD pre-installed, so the buyer then just has to add the required selection of fuses or breakers.

Laws making it illegal to do anything beyond replacing a light switch or something equally trivial seem to me to be unenforcable. We have such laws here already relating to gas and to notification when connecting certain items to drainage systems and so forth. In this area at least, the laws appear to be completely ignored.

There has never been anything to stop a homeowner carrying out wiring on his own house in England, and although I do not like the dangerous mess that sometimes results from DIY wiring, I think we need to be very careful before bringing in restrictive laws that stop a person doing what he wants in his own home.
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/17/03 09:11 AM
I actually don't think our regulations are excessively restrictive. You can do what ever you like but you only an electrician can put in a distribution board/fusebox/consumer unit.

It's one part of an electrical installation i dont think your average consumer has a clue about. There are too many potential problems with grounding, RCD requirments etc etc.

You can legally add final circuits just as long as you don't replace the distribution system.

---

There are however two other legal issues.

1) If you do DIY wiring and your house burns down the insurance company can refuse to pay up!

2) It's not acceptable to do DIY electrical work in a commercial / industrial context. The Health and Safety Athority / Safety at Work Act and various statutory instruments click in.

----

I know of one instance where a guy installed his own gas fire. There was a leak and the gas company just disconnected the entire installation closed the supply at the meter and took the meter away!! pending a full inspection by a registered contractor.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-17-2003).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/17/03 10:21 AM
Thta's the typical way to deal with gas issues here too. Close main valve ahead of the meter, put a seal on it and tell customer to get a licensed plumber. Preferably on a Friday afternoon in December. Conclusion: _Never_ call the gas company's emergency number! You can close the main valve yourself. And _you_ don't have to put a seal on it. Them guys are absolutely paranoid, and accidents involving natural gas are very rare here. Most are people messing around with their cookers trying to heat their kitchen or stupid plumbers/other workers (Some years ago an old lady was killed by a plumber purging a gas line, that's about the only incident I remember from the newspapers). LPG explosions happen slightly more often..
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/17/03 10:50 AM
Natural Gas accidents are very very rare here too. The publically owned gas company "Bord Gais" (Its in Gaelic! and just means Gas Board) is extremely paranoid about safety.

Quite difficult to have a major leak too they use regulators that behave pretty much like MCBs and RCDs in a lot of ways so if there's too much flow the supply is tripped shut.

LPG installations are controlled by 2 companies who seem to follow the same code of practice as natural gas. Accidents are rare although have happened.

The old town gas systems were much more dangerous as the gas was very toxic, made from gassified coal / oil.
Posted By: C-H Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/17/03 12:52 PM
Paul UK,

you're right. I forgot that possibility.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/17/03 05:42 PM
Yeah, town gas was a rather dangerous thing, and back then appliances din't have bimetallic shut-off valves. My aunt always tells the story of a baker in their street who wanted to commit suicide. Somebody rang the doorbell and the whole house blew up. Town gas basically consisted of roughly 3/4 hydrogen and 1/4 carbon monoxide.
LPG accidenst are usually small bottles exploding, but even that is rather rare.
I faintly remember a story of _real_ stupid construction or demolition workers who attempted to cut a live natural gas line with an angle grinder...
Or in Germany some guy blew up his house. Turned out he had bridged his meter with garden hose and scotch tape... (aka sellotape)
Don't think they use somhing like a regulator here, unless it's built into the meter.
In 1988 (winter) when I was alittle kid we had the pleasure of dealing with the gas company. My mom noticed a gas smell near the meter and called 128. Worker came, turned the main valve, put a seal on it and told us to get a plumber. Friday afternoon, Monday was a holiday. Well, long story short, it was a joint near the meter through which minimal amounts of gas escaped. We could easily have lived with it until Tuesday, but we'd have had heating, cooking and hot water.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/17/03 07:39 PM
Every winter it seems like we have the requisite tragic stories of families dying in their cold because they left their town-gas stove turned on for heat -- with the windows closed.

Most buildings in New York City are connected to town-gas service and people usually use gas stoves instead of electric for cooking so this "death by gas" happens mostly in apartments in squalid neighborhoods where the slumlords refuse to provide sufficient (if any) heat.

As a child I lived through lots of bitter winter nights where my mom and grandmom would have to have the oven and all four burners on the stove (with a pot of hot water for bathing) going at full blast because the landlord would shut the boiler off. We always kept a window cracked open a bit though.
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/18/03 01:47 AM
sven: It wouldn't be just towngas fumes, natural gas appliences exhaust gasses that could be equally deadly.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/19/03 11:37 AM
Do you mean actual town gas (coal gas) or natural gas, Sven? If burnt, both kinds of gas create deadly fumes (that's why you have to cut holes into the doors of windowless rooms in which a boiler is installed). But unburnt coal gas was most dangerous, as it contained CO. Unburnt natural gas is 'only' explosive, not toxic. Many people committed suicide by just turning on the oven w/o lighting it and sticking their head into it. Conversion to natural gas was done from 1970 to 1978 here in Vienna, 'cause coal gas became too expensive. It's a byproduct of coke production, and with decreasing steel production they didn't need all that coke any more.
GDR and western Berlin were on town gas until about 1990. Some Western German towns started converting as early as 1955, and there were big commercials "Gas poisoning impossible!".
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 10/19/03 12:32 PM
A similar conversion from town gas to natural gas took place in Britain during the 1960s & 1970s. I've always been led to believe that natural gas in its pure form is almost odorless, the pungent smell being artificially added to eneable leaks to be detected more easily.

Natural gas may not be poisonous in itself, but in a fairly well-sealed room, wouldn't the pressure of the gas eventually drive out the room air through small cracks until the oxygen level was dangerously low?


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/10/03 06:45 AM
Sorry,
But in the last couple of days over here, there has been a very large stink building over here, with respect to a National DIY chain, starting to buy 1mm2, 1.5mm2, 2.5mm2 and 4mm2 2C+E and 3C+E Tough Plastic Sheathed cable.
This is un-precedented(sp?) here, as the only place you can buy this sort of thing is either through an Electrical shop or a Wholesaler, and in both cases, if you are of the DIY ilk, you WILL be questioned as to what you want to use the said cable for and your arrangements to get it connected legally.
The said chain has been buying the cable from a source that imports cable from overseas, by the container load.
But the thing here is, that it is half the price of our Trade price (the Retail price to the customer).
95% of the Electrical Contractors in town here, that held Trade accounts with this chain, have cancelled them, in protest.
I have done the same and bear in mind, we only buy Rawlbolts and various other such things off them.
This chain only looks to make a sale, it doesn't care what the stuff is used for and they don't have anyone even close to having any Electrical knowledge, given that most of thier staff have just left school!.
I can see this move leading to tears. [Linked Image]
Posted By: C-H Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/10/03 01:38 PM
This has already happened in other countries. It forces contractors to reduce the mark-up on materials and charge by the hour.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/10/03 03:23 PM
Trumpy,

The wire sizes that you say this DIY shed is selling, are these the standard sizes used for the interior wiring of a home (to power points, switches and lightbulbs) or are these meant for commercial/industrial wiring?

How much does an electrical supplier grill you before selling you a piece of cable to replace a damaged length in your wall? I appreciate their concern, but sometimes I can find it a bit annoying. [Linked Image]

Anyway....I wonder if the supplier is worried that an incompetent doof might screw up the installation, set his house on fire or whatever and then go sue the store that sold him the wire because "it was faulty" or something.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/10/03 06:16 PM
The wire sizes are (very) roughly 16 to 14 AWG. 1mm2 would be used for lighting (max. 6A), 1.5 for general purpose (10 or 13A, fuse or breaker), 2.5mm2 = 16A and 4mm2 = 20A. So it's mostly stuff for home-brew wiring.
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/10/03 11:12 PM
Hmmmm.......

I appreciate concerns over whether somebody is competent enough to carry out his own wiring, but I didn't realize that NZ previously didn't offer cables for sale in the big chains.

As somebody who has always lived in places where anyone can walk into a DIY store and buy electrical accessories off the shelf, no questions asked, I would find it very hard to accept a more restrictive regime.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/11/03 05:10 AM
Paul and others.
Whoa!!.
Sorry, but I may have actually given you guys the impression that you can't buy anything Electrical here, unless you are Qualified.
This is not the case, but, you can only purchase switches, socket-outlets, dimmers and the like, to connect to already run fixed wiring.
If you run your own wiring, a Registered Electrician is required to certify and connect the said wiring, to the supply, wherever that supply point is in the installation.
Connecting this yourself, will void your insurance cover, if there is a problem down the track.
Ragnar,
Those are pretty conservative current ratings.
Here we would have 1mm protected by a 10A C-Curve MCB, 1.5mm on a 16A MCB, 2.5mm on a 20A MCB and 4mm on a 25A MCB.
You can also use lower current rating MCB's on a given circuit, where current-limiting is required over very long runs.
Just as a note, TPS cable is used for Domestic, Commercial and Industrial Installations here, the only thing that differs between the Grades, is the amount of Mechanical Protection, ie: PVC or Steel Conduit covering it. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/11/03 02:39 PM
i took the Austrian ratings. German ratings are a bit less conservative, 1.5mm2 up to 16A, 2.5mm2 20 A and 4mm2 25A. Here you'd have to use 6mm2 for 25A. 1mm2 isn'T old for fixed wiring any more (that more or less died out along with the cloth covered wires). Standard wiring for general purpose circuits would be 1.5mm2 with 13A B curve MCB. Dedicated circuits for dishwashers and washing machines are usually 2.5mm2 16A B-MCB. C MCBs are only used for heavier motors, etc. If you ask the Baumax guys they'll tell you: "B for home wiring, C if you got a workshop or something like that." Some shops don't carry 13A MCBs, then you have to take 10A. I've never seen 6A MCBs here, and 6A Diazed fuses disappeared quite some time ago. Any load exceeding 16A is fed with 3ph. Most DIY stores carry 1.5 and 2.5 mm2 NYM and 1.5, 2.5 and 4mm2 conduit wire, for anything thicker you have to ask an electrician. He probably won't ask any questions if you buy sizes up to 2.5mm2, even though you're actually not even allowed to open a plug. If you want to buy 6mm2 conduit wire, black, blue, brown and yellow-green he'll probably ask you what you want to do because the only use of such a beast that comes to my mind would be a meter feeder.
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/11/03 10:54 PM
OK, not so bad in NZ as first thought then. I think most people from Britain would still find it rather restrictive however.

In my experience, the majority of people here simply would not like the government telling them what work they may or may not carry out themselves on their own house.

So far as I'm aware, the only actual restrictions in place are those which make it illegal for anyone but a CORGI-registered engineer to connect gas appliances or work on gas lines.

* CORGI = Confederation Of Registered Gas Installers
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/12/03 12:13 AM
Interesting how they don't let you buy larger cables.

Does this lead to people doing DIY wiring with undersized cables?

E.g. if someone attempted to wire in a cooker or large water heater?

Paul: Speaking of cable sizes. I have noticed a lot of problems wiring certain new cookers here in Ireland that are obviously aimed at the European market. They have a 220/380 option..

The cooker has 5 terminals:
N
L1
L2
L3
L123 (connects across all phases)

The problem is that inserting the heavy cable used here for cookers is VERY difficult as the terminals seem to be designed for flex (The 3 phase set up would have thinner cables). Solid cable is normally used here for cooker connections not multi stranded stuff.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-11-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/12/03 12:06 PM
The big DIY chains here stock almost all items likely to be used for a typical residential system.

My local B&Q carries the following:

* Twin-&-earth in sizes 1 through 10 sq. mm.

* Triple-&-earth in 1 and 1.5mm

* Singles, 16 and 25mm for meter tails

* Earth cable, 4, 6, 10, and 16mm

* A wide range of flexes, including heat-resistant 2.5mm

* Wylex NH range panels, 2-way right up to 12-way with main switch or RCD, and MCBs 6A through 40A.

* Wylex standard range fuses and MCBs

* Earth rods and clamps

* The usual range of switches, sockets, fused spur connections, mounting boxes, junction boxes, strip connectors, cable clips, etc.

I don't remember seeing SWA cable and associated parts there.

Quote
The cooker has 5 terminals:
N
L1
L2
L3
L123 (connects across all phases)
I'm not quite following you. The ones I've seen here have L1, L2, L3, N, and are usually supplied with a strap to link all three phase terminals together for single-phase operation.

Are you saying you've seen some models with an extra terminal which in turn has removable straps to the other three phase terminals?

I know what you mean about the terminal sizes though. Some of them seem to be very undersized these days.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/12/03 01:27 PM
Probably they're designed for a max. of 2.5mm2 stranded. A cooker isn't considered a fixed appliance, so a flexible cord is absolutely required. Typical cooker wiring here in Vienna is either 5x2.5mm2 flex to a cord outlet behind the cooker (blank plate with a hole for the cord and a strip connector inside) or 3x1.5mm2 flex with Schuko plug. In this case the elements are locked, so you can't turn them on all at once and overload the cable/trip the breaker. Since more or less any service is 3ph up to the meter upgrading isn't too expensive, hence the single phase version is pretty rare. it is mostly designed for camping vans, trailers etc, as on campsites you'll hardly get 380V. Single phase services are AFAIK only up to 25A, so hooking up a cooker to that with full load would definitely be a problem.
Posted By: C-H Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/12/03 02:16 PM
Djk,

Using solid cable for a piece of movable funiture sounds very strange, unless you are thinking of those built in cooktops?
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/12/03 05:48 PM
Paul,

They have a 4th Live terminal.. You leave a metal plate in place that contacts all L1,L2,L3 and obviously connects them to the 4th terminal.

A cooker's not considered a movable applience here. They're normally built-in and only moved for replacement or serious service so solid cable would be commonly used. Flex is occasionally used but not where a cooker is not being moved e.g. a built in hob, 6 plate range or built in oven.

Remember we connect our cookers to 220V so the cables are pretty large!

Also

Technically Cooker connections here MUST be made by an electrician, even if you're just swapping an old one for a new one.

DIY cooker replacement can be quite problematic. Particularly where someone replaces a "traditional cooker" with a seperate oven and hob. Or worse where a seperate oven and hob are installed and crudely wired into the back of a cooker control switch.
The regs here require a seperate 45A switch for each heavy applience and it can be leathal to stick 2 huge cooker cables into the terminals of a switch.
Posted By: pauluk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/12/03 09:00 PM
OK, on the 4th line terminal. I've not yet seen that approach used anywhere.

Some older-model British cookers were clearly made in both domestic and export versions. They typically used bolt terminals for the incoming cables, fitted to which were the appropriate number of quarter-inch lugs onto which the internal wiring terminated.

The domestic versions just had a single line terminal with all the feeds to the thermostats connected to it, but there were vacant L2 and L3 positions on the chassis where extra terminals were fitted for export versions -- The feeds would then be connected to balance out the load.

The free-standing all-in-one cooker was the norm for many years, and these are considered fixed appliances here too, and are generally wired with standard "twin & earth" cable.

Separate ovens and hobs have become more fashionable in recent years, and as Dave has said for Ireland, they do seem to be problematical for DIYers. A single isolation switch can control both here, so long as it is within 2m of both units.
Posted By: djk Re: International D-I-Y store chains? - 11/13/03 02:10 AM
Here it's almost the same except the earth would be the same size as the Live and Neutral conductors and insulated in new installations but it's normal cable. The colour code would also be different (Brown, Blue and Green/Yellow)

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-12-2003).]
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