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Posted By: WebSparky Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 03:47 AM
Here's a challenge!

I've never seen one of these before.
This is a manufactured device used in a manufacturer's testing department.

This unit is made to plug in to 115V@60Hz and then it supplies the receptacles with 220V@50Hz. This is for the testing of all of the overseas appliances.

Here is the challenge......... Name the Countries associated with each receptacle shown. We'll number them from left to right, top to bottom.

Here is a clue......... There are 13 Countries involved.

[Linked Image from joetedesco.com]

This is just for fun! If I had to identify these........ no way!

Dave
Posted By: pauluk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 07:59 AM
Some of these receptacles are used in more than one country, so it would be impossible to be certain as to the actual 13 countries involved. Anyway, here goes:

1. Australian outlet, also New Zealand, Fiji
2. British BS1363 used in U.K., Ireland, Malta, Cyprus
3. French, also used in Belgium and parts of eastern Europe
4. Old British BS546 15A, could be for South Africa or India
5. Schuko, used widely in many European countries (Germany, Austria, Sweden, Spain, etc.)
6. Switzerland
7. Italy

Years ago, many old British repair shops had a similar board fitted with all the different receptacles which were then in common use in this country.
Posted By: ThinkGood Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 11:15 AM
Don't have a clue [Linked Image]

However, #4 looks something similar to what I noticed in the hallway of a hospital (here in the US) recently.

Any ideas?
Posted By: C-H Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 12:06 PM
Paul,

No 3 is a Danish (13A) socket, not a French!

Not forgetting No 0 (the plug!) which is American.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-18-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 01:04 PM
Danish? So it is. Sorry! [Linked Image]

On closer inspection I can see the spade-shaped ground hole. At first glance I thought it was the ground-pin sticking up on an upside-down French outlet. That'll teach me to look more closely in future! [Linked Image]

TG,
I can't imagine why you'd have something like the BS546 (socket #4) in a hospital there, unless it was installed for some special purpose. Could it have been the smaller 5A version? These 15A types are really huge!
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 02:10 PM
Paul UK,

Common in hospitals to fit all the cleaning equipment with BS546 plugs so that contract cleaners are not tempted to use sockets supplying sensitive equipment in wards! Although very sensitive equipment usually uses keyed plugs (often locked into the socket and clearly marked)

I donno why you'd have a BS546 plug in the US though.

And yeah they are HUGE pins are as fat as your fingers! Looks like it was designed to connect up an entire house never mind a 15 amp vacuum cleaner [Linked Image]

Can you imagine.. oops! was that a ventilator! Thought it was the lamp

Doesn't the Danish socket look like a smiley face hehe

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-18-2003).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 03:09 PM
Quote
However, #4 looks something similar to what I noticed in the hallway of a hospital (here in the US) recently.

YES!!! I've been meaning to ask this question also. We have similar them on the pillars of subway train statinons in New York City. Some have been replaced with twist-lock recepts for 240 volts at 30 amps (I believe). Others with standard NEMA 5-20 sockets (for 110 volts).

They also used to be in Elmhurst Hospital in New York when I was a kid (before vast renovations).

Apparently the ones in the hospital had standard 110-volt current across them because I routinely saw wall-mounted fans plugged into them -- somehow the flat pins of the plugs did make contact with the sleeves inside the receptacles. The socket had a red box painted around it.

However the dimensions of the 15-amp British socket is MUCH bigger. The three-round-hole sockets that I've seen are closer to the smaller 5-amp British socket.

I'm wondering if these are actually those pin-and-sleeve sockets used for high amperage stuff...except those have a locking collar. The ones I saw didn't have that....they seemed like standard receptacles slightly recessed in the hole in the plate.

I remember once in the subway a crew was using some piece of machinery. It was plugged into a short extension cord that had a contemporary type female cordcap on one end and into the wall recept was stuck this HUGE brass plug.

I think it even had a threaded collar for locking the plug into place (the outlet has a collar for a protective screw cap that flips down after you've finished).
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 08:11 PM
I wonder if the old standard for 240V outlets in the US happened to be based on the only other system standardised at 240-250V and widely deployed around the world at the time. BS 546.

?
Posted By: WebSparky Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 09:24 PM
Don't look unless you want the answers!

!
!
!
!
!
!
!

1. Australia
2. British
3. Denmark
4. India and South Africa
5. Norway, Findland, Sweden, Germany, Austia and Netherlands
6. Switzerland
7. Italy
Posted By: Plugman Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/18/03 09:48 PM
Well, all those were individual sockets ~

How about this one, found at www.cambre.com.ar

Oh drat! tried to put a picture in here, but it didn't work ~ sorry 'bout that.
Look under page 'modulos',on the product section, for item No.6908,it's a gem of a socket !

[This message has been edited by Plugman (edited 08-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Plugman (edited 08-18-2003).]
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/19/03 12:17 AM
It's reassuring to see that the whole world has their own localized versions of ground-pin up/down neuroses.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/19/03 12:37 AM
Here you go Plugman:

[Linked Image from cambre.com.ar]

Interesting! [Linked Image]

Bill
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/19/03 01:12 AM
Bill, I heard that outlet was for the intergallactic 7¨ù-phase 5¡×5.0
¡î2-Hz system.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/19/03 02:56 AM
Plugman:

This is what the Taiwanese have come up with:

[Linked Image from wonpro.com]
[Linked Image from wonpro.com]

Some travel adapters are also made like this. Wonpro - the ones who claim to be the originator of this socket config - actually makes the best ones of the bunch - I just say that from personal experience (not shilling).

You can fit British (both 5 amp BS546 and 13 amp BS1363), Italian, Swiss, Schuko (won't be grounded) Europlug, American, Australian and even Israeli/Middle Eastern into one of these. [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

This is a standard two-pin Taiwanese socket, by the way:

[Linked Image from wonpro.com]

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 08-18-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/19/03 05:00 PM
Why are UK plug-in transformers often made the wrong way around?

They seem to regularly be made so that the cable comes out the top and the writing on the unit itself is upsidedown.

Don't the manufacturers know that the UK plug/socket system is always mounted with the earth pin on top?
Posted By: C-H Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/19/03 05:49 PM
Quote

Don't the manufacturers know that the UK plug/socket system is always mounted with the earth pin on top?

Probably not. The manufacturers seem to know pretty little about their markets.

By the way, look at this receptacle from that Argentinian manufacturer:

[Linked Image from cambre.com.ar]

Módulo Tomacorriente Schuko Polarizado
Con perno central para proteccion de fichas extrañas

I've forgotten too much of my Spanish. What does it mean?

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-19-2003).]
Posted By: C-H Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/19/03 06:11 PM
That manufacturer also has a very interesting quick-connect system. It looks good and simple.

Have a look at this page

Plugman, how do you find these places??? I regard myself as being pretty good at finding things on the net and ThinkGood and SvenNYC are masters of the art. With the addition of you, no information on the web is safe anymore...
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/20/03 02:07 AM
C-H:

That would be a:

Polarized Schuko receptacle module with center "key" (or peg) for rejecting extraneous plugs.

Has anyone ever seen a Schuko plug with a hole for such a key through the middle? I wonder if this is used for receptacles in places like data centers that are connected to surge protectors and also have isolated ground.

You know, kind of like the special UK and Danish plugs with the funky pins...

By the way, these are interchangeable device series. It seems like some Latin American manufacturers are big on this.

The Mexicans manufacturers like Swichi and Iusa also make interchangeable devices -- of course they are on the NEMA standard. But essentially what you have is a metal bracket and the different modules "snap" in or are fastened with little screws.

Luminex, The Colombian branch of Legrand also does something similar during factory assembly, but I've yet to see the individual modules for sale to the public. They only sell complete plates with mounted devices.

So you can theoretically have three two-pin receptacles, two receptacles and a switch, three switches, a light switch, a receptacle and a bell-push, two switches and a two-pin receptacle, etc.

The three-pin receptacle assemblies aren't as flexible -- you can only squeeze two on a bracket.

This entire thing then gets mounted in the wall box (which is the same dimension as used in the USA). An appropriate plate is then snapped or bolted on over the assembly.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 08-19-2003).]
Posted By: C-H Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/20/03 09:33 AM
Quote

I wonder if this is used for receptacles in places like data centers that are connected to surge protectors and also have isolated ground.

You know, kind of like the special UK and Danish plugs with the funky pins...

Just my thought. It would make sense. I've heard somewhere that computers are shipped with Schuko plugs in Argentina/Uruguay. Perhaps it's this special version? But polarized???
Posted By: pauluk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/20/03 12:25 PM
A couple of UK manufacturers do modular fitting like this as well. Brackets are built for 1 up to about 6-wide modules, then you just clip in any combination you want.

Typically the 1-wide modules are switches, BS1363 fuse carriers, neon pilot lights, etc. with wider modules for sockets.
Posted By: Plugman Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/21/03 07:38 PM
To Bill, thanx for posting that piccy, so that the other guys could see what I was rambling on about, and to SvenNYC and C-H also, for their examples ~ much appreciated [Linked Image].
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Receptacle Challenge - 08/22/03 02:03 PM
Plugman,

Glad to help, (and Welcome to ECN !)

[Linked Image]
Bill
Posted By: :andy: Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/18/03 03:20 PM
check this interesting site on plug systems
http://kropla.com/electric2.htm
Posted By: PaulCornwall Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/19/03 02:02 PM
i know you guys have probably talked over this in the past, but in europe polarity doesnt seem as inportant as it is here in the UK, why is this,
Posted By: Hutch Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/19/03 03:29 PM
Paul C, it has come up in discussion before especially when discussing an ideal/universal plug-socket system. Apparently it is mainly historical in that early European 220V supplies were derived from two phases of a 3 phase, 127V to ground wye system and thus polarity was not an issue. According to posts on this forum, there are scattered places in Western Europe where this system is still in use.

In my mind, this does not make a non-polarised, single phase, 230V to ground plug system right – but then I am a known ‘polarist’ around here [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/19/03 06:44 PM
PaulC:

Interesting, was looking up Ireland in that site and apparently French type sockets/plugs are one of our standards! Have never seen one in use here and schuko is long gone.

On the polarity issue in Europe.

All modern european appliences conforming to various directives are designed to be used on a non-polarised system and would normally contain a double pole switch (i.e. it cuts both the live and neutral).

Even if there is only single pole switching
For the vast majority of appliences, except lamp sockets, this isn't a bit issue. Even if the neutral is switched and the applience will stop working, the circuit is broken. The only risk would be if you opened the casing and poked around as you could find a live part.

In the case of lamps if the neutral is switched off the lamp will go off but one of the pins in the holder would remain live. So if you were dumb enough to switch off the lamp and stick your finger in you would get a shock. However, even in the UK you risk this as the lamp could very easily be wired incorrectly. Lamp terminals are particularly fiddly and often DIY jobs!. So you should ALWAYS remove the plug before changing a bulb.

And ALWAYS remove the plug before servicing any applience. It's just pure stupidity not to.

---

Also many appliences which have "figure of 8" connectors (e.g. a lot of audiovisual equipment) is completely unpolarised as you can insert the plug either way.

Also, if a europlug is used in any kind of adaptor, including the new "convertor plugs" where the europlug is fitted inside what looks like a normal BS1363 plug the applience could be connected either way.

---

In terms of fusing it doesn't actually matter in a european system where the fuse is not carried in the plug. The live is always fused in the fixed wiring so if an MCB or fuse blows the live will be cut.

(The UK and Ireland being unique requiring a fused plug! again for historical reasons due to the use of very thin flexes etc)


-----
Posted By: pauluk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/19/03 07:49 PM
Some people seem to make a big deal out of a single-pole switch on an appliance which could end up in the neutral.

Yes, it will leave the "innards" live when switched off. If someone who doesn't know what he's doing opens up the case and pokes around inside with the device still plugged in he could touch live terminals anyway.

There are a few instances where correct polarity is a consideration, and to cover those cases we need polarized plugs and sockets to be available. But most of the time, I believe that Britain makes far too much fuss about this.
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/19/03 10:59 PM
I would actually consider IEEs regulatory approach a little weird they seem to tend to get obcessed with one or two details while ignoring a lot of other areas that need review and perhaps they could even learn (shock horror!) from European practice in some instances.

E.g. Why did they allow very primative rewirable fuses to remain for so long when Diazed/Neozed was around and in use all over the place?!

Ireland's ECTI (the equivilant of the IEE) has tended to shop around for best practices worldwide and I think we're finally seeing some really sensible regulations. We've aspects of IEE regs, aspects of German etc etc.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/20/03 09:21 PM
Quote
E.g. Why did they allow very primative rewirable fuses to remain for so long when Diazed/Neozed was around and in use all over the place?!
This is certainly one area where Britain lagged WAY behind until very recently.

The IEE and other committees didn't even have to look as far away as using those "weird foreign" Diazed fuses. We've had our own BS1361 cartridge fuses for decades.
Posted By: GeneSF Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/20/03 10:06 PM
I remember "When I'm 64" by the Beatles. One of the lyrics talked about "mending a fuse". I did not know what this meant until I visited my brother's father in law while in England. He showed how to fix a fuse using fuse wire.

As a youngster, I remember fuseboxes had plain old screw-in lamp style fuses.

That was in the 1960s...circuit breakers have long replaced fuses.
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/21/03 12:28 AM
Isn't BS1361 like 1362 a standardised cart. system in which all fuses regardless of rating fit the same holder?

If so Diazed/Neozed is far superior as the vast majority of the population are pretty dumb and wouldn't think twice about whacking a much higher ampage fuse into a 15A socket circuit because it blows when they have the dryer and washer runing simultaniously off a double adaptor [Linked Image]
Posted By: David UK Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/21/03 01:01 AM
DJK,
BS 1361 (consumer unit) fuses are not like BS 1362 (plug) fuses, they are of different dimensions. The smallest is 5A, & 45A is the largest, so you can't fit a larger fuse into a smaller carrier. As with all fuse systems they can be abused, for example, by wrapping a blown fuse in tin foil. Is Diazed/Neozed not open to the same bodging by those who know no better?

BS 1361 fuses are available in the following ratings:
5A: White (5.35mm dia X 23mm long)
15A: Blue (10.32mm X 26mm)
20A: Yellow (15 & 20A are the same dimensions & can be interchanged with each other.)
30A: Red (12.70mm X 29mm)
45A: Green (16.67mm X 35mm)

[This message has been edited by David UK (edited 10-20-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/21/03 10:09 AM
Yeah I'm sure it is but due to the complicated way the carrier works and the strange shape of the cart. it's quite difficult to bypass the fuse.

I have seen attempts to open a diazed fuse and replace the wire inside though! It's quite easy to remove the pointed tip of the fuse but it's rather more difficult to remove and replace the flat terminal at the bottom / top (depending on which way you're looking at it).

It's amazing that BS1361 wasn't made compulsary many years ago though.

I'm curious too as to how the carrier works? It's plug in ?

Also, I never understood why BS1362 (Plug fuses) were never graded making it impossible to overfuse. (particularly the 3 amp fuses). Although I guess it's of little consequence thesedays with the vast majority of appliences and their flexes being quite safe at 16 A as they're designed for pan-european use. Rendering the <13A fuses pretty much an optional safety extra in many ways.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-21-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/21/03 10:50 AM
Here's the range of BS1361 fuses found in consumer units:

[Linked Image from tlc-direct.co.uk]

The traditional fitting had the fuse in a plug-in carrier. These are still available in the Wylex Standard range. You might just be able to see here that the pins on the opened-up 30A carrier are larger than those on the 15/20A unit, thus preventing the insertion of the wrong size fuse:

[Linked Image]

There are newer types of carrier where the block fitted to the panel has a hinged pull-out. You just pull out the top, drop a fuse into the carrier and push it back in. This is the Hager type:

[Linked Image from tlc-direct.co.uk]

Quote
Also, I never understood why BS1362 (Plug fuses) were never graded making it impossible to overfuse.
To do that there would have to be different types of BS1363 plug, each type designed to accept only the correct size fuse.

Even if this had been done, there would still be the problem of overfusing when somebody chopped the 13A-version plug off an old electric heater to use on their new bedside lamp.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-21-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/21/03 11:16 AM
Gene,

Here's the sort of thing The Beatles were talking about: [Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Incredible as it may seem, this particular brand of rewireable fuse was still being installed as standard into the 1980s, and Wylex still makes them!

Fortunately, the Wylex panels these fit can be converted to cartridge fuses very easily, without even taking off the front cover.
Posted By: C-H Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/21/03 04:14 PM
Diazed fuses can easily be "mended" by driving a nail through it or wrapping something round it. (A smaller size fuse will help you past the limited diameter entrance in the bottom of the fuse holder)

Some trades usually do this before they start working, since their equipment draws more power than is available in a domestic setting.
Posted By: djk Re: Receptacle Challenge - 10/21/03 04:35 PM
I still think an old big old black diazed panel with the huge round white porceline fuse caps has an excellent 1930s SiFi quality about it [Linked Image]
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