This is the switch with cover



And this is a switch without cover.



This may look familiar to Europeans, but I think it will look very unfamiliar to our American friends. This is a watertight switch, and the blue arrow is just there to show the way the water flows through the switch. But all switches, be they outdoor, indoor, in wall or on wall, have the same red 'core' with six terminals. There is however a range of different switching configurations to choose from. Two/three way, four way, double pole and so on.

I'll leave it to you to figure out how to wire this beast. And can you figure out what 2+1 means?

Interesting. I take it that the rockers clip onto the switch bodies. I've seen some weatherproof LeGrand switches used here that are similar, although the connection arrangements weren't the same.

Do they mark the terminals in any specific way for each configuration, or are you left to just test with a meter?

Re 2+1: Two switches plus single-gang box????

Weird thing. All weatherproof switches of that kind I've seen for quite some time have grey or yellowish guts and 4 backstab terminals, some of them unused depending on waht kind of switch it is. 2 of the terminals are usually labeled "P", the remaining 2 usually not at all. The second P terminal is unused with anything but 4way switches, the 2 unlabeled terminals are either the 2 travelers or the 2 lamp wires in case of a double switch like this one. Single pole switches are practically non-existant (haven't seen one all the time I'm buying electrictal stuff, and that's more than 10 years now, I think they disappeared in the mid-80ies).

The former. On the back there is also a schematic.


Hint: It's about the switching configuration.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-03-2003).]

Hmm.....

For a 3-way, maybe it refers to 2 travelers plus one common?

Or for two straight switches could it be 2 switches plus one common feed terminal?

Ranger,
Wouldn't it just be easier to have a IP rated enclosure and exclude ALL moisture, rather than let moisture through the switch body?.
Also, does 2+1 refer to a two-way switch + 1 looping terminal?.
Just wondering,mate!

One two way switch and one straight switch. And yes, it's rather unusual.

Now, why are the three teminals marked

N(eutral), B(lind) and L(ine)

if the neutral goes to the single pole switch?

Sorry Trumpy, I don't really get you. Our switches _are_ in an IP 44 or higher enclosure, it's just the rocker, a thin piece of plastic that clips onto the front, like in the pictures. There's a front cover which is already taken off in the second pic.

AH-HA,
Now I get what you are suggesting!.
So that plate in behind the two blue(moisture) arrows, is there to screw it to the wall?.
We had switches, that looked a wee bit like this, over here in the 80's.

Maybe Norwegian is using their equivalent of the term neutral in a different sense to the way we do? No idea about Blind.

Paul,
Would it be that the Blind is a Looping terminal, as is the Neutral terminal and two (Common and Switch) terminals?.

The back of the switch on the second pic does look a bit peculiar. Usually the mounting screws are hidden inside the enclosure, like on the first pic.
The neutral terminal could be for switches with indicator light. No idea about blind though.

Would the Blind be for a seperate connection. e.g. for the earth?

Oops, I think I should have written with the cover removed instead of without cover.

Trumpy is right: The B is just a looping terminal.

I went back to the manufacturer's website to check the schematics. There were a number of them, but this one is lacking. It seems I chose the wrong example...

Anyway, there are three terminals out at the top, marked with little arrows.

I think the N means that the switch to the left is single way, which means that the right switch is two way. There are different rocker plates (is that a suitable word for the 'buttons'?). Either you use two, like in the photo, or you use a single rocker plate. In the latter case, the switch will become double pole. If you want to use it as disconnect. Only then does the N(eutral) and L(ine) make sense.

Anyone else than me who wonders what will happen with the screws in all that water? Better use stainless...

That's quite a neat arrangement so that you can use a wide "tie" rocker to convert the two switches to a single double-pole unit.

As a matter of interest, what are the Norwegian terms for line, neutral, etc.?

What is the maximum thickness of wires that you can connect? 2x1.5 mm2 or 2 x 2.5 mm2 or eventually more?

Belgian,

Two wires per terminal and 2.5mm2 or maybe 4mm2. The switches are rated 10A or 16A.

I finally found the right drawing:



There are even stranger switches and ways of wiring the switches. What is this for? (Don't ask me, I don't know)

Ah! The labeling on that first diagram makes sense now.

As for the second, it appears to be a regular 3-way switching arrangement but with double-pole switching and thus four travelers.

It took me a while to figure out why anyone would need to do this, but I think I have an explanation.

Don't parts of Norway use a 220V IT system (i.e. neither pole is grounded) ?

Wiring a 3-way light this way would insure that when the switches are set for the light to be off that both poles on the lampholder are disconnected from the supply.

Yes, the second diagram is a double pole 2 way switch. Here it is always required double poled switches for bathrooms or outdoors. The reason being that we still have older systems which is 230V fase to fase. The curious thing is that in Belgium you couldn't get a double pole 2 way switch untill recently. So we had to work with a 2 pole "teleruptor". (sorry, don't know the english term for that).

That's what we would call a relay or contactor. The control switches operate the coil and the double-pole contacts on the relay then switch the two hot lines to the light.

I believe that serial-operated contactors (first pulse of current to the coil closes the contacts, second pulse opens them) with momentary push-buttons in two or more places are quite common in modern French installations for lights switched from multiple locations.

C-H,
It all makes sense now!

Paul,

Yes, that's what I meant: a "serial operated cotactor" with push buttons. Is there no shorter word for this in English? In Dutch we call it a "Impulsschakelaar" - schakelaar meaning switch. We use them very often over here whenever we have 3 or more switches for 1 light e.g. long corridors or stairs. What do you use in England in such circumstances? 3 and 4 way switches? Even when you have 5 switches? Hre it would be seen more like a recepy for spaghetti.
Another application is when the push buttons are next to swimming pools, then we use a 12V or 24V version. We can then use very thin wire fore the switches e.g. 0.6 mm2.

Pauluk,

Here you go:

Voltage = Spenning
Current = Strøm
Power = Effekt

Phase = Fase
Neutral = Null
Earth = Jord
Protective Earth = Beskyttelsesjord

Conductor = Ledning
Circuit = Kurs
Grid = Nett
System/installation = Anlegg

Fuse = Sikring
Fuse box = Sikringsskap
Main fuse = Hovedsikring
Main disconnect = Hovedbryter
RCD = Jordfeilbryter

Junction box = Koblingsboks
Socket = Stikkontakt
Light switch = Lysbryter

Blackout = Strømutkobling
Electrician = Elektriker

Disclaimer: There could be errors in the above list.

C-H,

Very interesting! I could recognise nearly all the terms since they resemble very strongly to German and Dutch. So for RCD you say "earthfaildisconnect"? That's an interesting term. I didn"t understand the literal transalation of "Beskyttelses" and I didn't reconise the word "bryter"? For the rest everything seems like a dialect of German.

Well, my first lesson in Norwegian has been quite educational. (Any normal person would start by learning "Hello," "Goodbye," and "How are you?" )

What's the literal meaning of kobling?
So Strømutkobling = Current-????

It looks a little like the way they string several words together to form a new term in German.

An addition: Old German term for RCD: FI or Fehlerstrominduktionsschutzschalter - literal translation: Fault current induction protection switch. Or a bit shorter Fehlerstrom-Schutzschalter - Fault current protection switch. Today electricians start calling it RCD (at least in Germany) but everybody will know what you mean by "FI". There are also a couple of weird homeowner terms that aren't really connected to the subject any more, like "Trennschutz" which means something like "protective disconnect" but isn't really a word.

Voltage: Spannung
Current: Strom
Power: Leistung
Amperage: Stromstaerke

Phase: Phase (only different pronounciation, the A is like for example the second a in Hannah) and the e at the end is pronounced)
Neutral: Nullleiter (Leiter is conductor)
Ground: Erdung, Schutzleiter, PE

Circuit: Stromkreis, Kreis (if it is clear what kind of circuit is referred to)
Grid: Netz
System/Installation: System, Anlage/Installation

Fuse: Sicherung
Fuse box: Sicherungskasten (old) or Verteiler
Main fuse: Hauptsicherung
Main disconnect: Hauptschalter
Breaker: LS or Leitungsschutzschalter

Junction box: Verteilerdose
Socket: Steckdose
Switch: Schalter
Light switch: Lichtschalter

Blackout: Stromausfall
Electrician: Elektriker

Strip connector: Lusterklemme
Wirenut: Drehverbinder
Plug: Stecker
Trailing socket: Kupplung or informal Steckdose

Neutral bus bar: N-Schiene
Ground bus bar: PE-Schiene, Erdungsschiene
DIN-rail: Hutschiene

Yes, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are dialects of Plattdeutsch.


Earthfaultdisconnect


Protection/protective. Compare to German "Schutz-" and Swedish "Skydds-"


Breaker. That's pretty similar, isn't it?

Pauluk,
we aren't normal are we?

kobling = connection

thus Strømutkobling = Current-dis-connection

In the Nordic languages 'Strøm' is often used when you would have used 'power' in English.

I'll throw in the Swedish terms too, when I'm at it.

Voltage = Spänning
Current = Ström
Power = Effekt

Phase = Fas
Neutral = Nolla
Earth = Jord
Protective Earth = Skyddsjord

Conductor = Ledare
Circuit = Krets
Grid = Nät
System/installation = Anläggning

Fuse = Generally 'Säkring', specifically for mains power 'Propp'
Fuse box = Proppskåp
Main fuse = Huvudsäkring
Main disconnect = Huvudbrytare
RCD = Jordfelsbrytare

Junction box = Kopplingsbox
Socket = 'Uttag' or collogially 'kontakt'
Light switch = Strömbrytare or collogially 'lampknapp'

Blackout = Strömavbrott
Electrician = Elektriker

An easy way to remember it:

Kobling = Coupling

Some English words are very similar to their corresponding words in Dutch....it's always interesting to read it and I can sometimes fanagle my way with it (reading it and tranlating it to corresponding words in English and German).

I can't speak Dutch or understand it when I hear it on the radio, however.

It's a funny language, Dutch.
As some of you guys, may know, I work with an Electrician from Holland, from time to time and although he has tried to explain to me how the Dutch language works, it seems
so weird(sp?, can't even use English properly).
I assume that Dutch is based on German?.

Thanks for the lists guys. Maybe we should start a "foreign technical terms dictionary" reference thread for all of these?

My Dutch is severely limited as well, in fact about the only thing I can say in Dutch is Dank u veel. And you don't need a degree in linguistics to work out what that means! Still, I've yet to meet anyone from the Netherlands who can't speak at least reasonable, if not fluent, English.

I studied French in school, and a little German (most of which I forgot as I only did it for a year or so), but I've really taken more of interest in languages in recent years. The more you look at the subject, the more you seem to concentrate on the similarities rather than the differences.

I even started looking at Russian a few years ago, and once you have the Cyrillic alphabet memorized it's really nothing like as daunting as it first appears. Only learned a few basic words, though!

I have to say that all of you on the Continent really put we Anglo-Saxons to shame though when it comes to speaking other languages.

Dutch sometimes appears to me as a weird dialect of German, mixed with a lot of English. For example, the number 5 is pronounced somewhere like the English "five", but 55 is composed like in German grammar, don't know about the spelling, but it sounds like "fivefivzich" the "ch" in the throat like in some Arabian words.
It's definitely the most funny language I've ever heard, and the Dutch I know are also quite weird people (I once had the fun of working at a construction project, and it was _really_ cool).
Dutch tourists in Austria are also known as notorious drunks, worse than most other tourists.

Belgian,

Follow up to an earlier message. Since I couldn't find any information on the switch or the package about maximum wire size I tested. I found that 6 mm2 can only be inserted with force. Hence, 4 mm2 appears to be the largest size that can be used.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-12-2003).]

Here we go in (DOUBLE) Dutch:

Voltage = Spanning
Current = Stroom
Power = Energie

Phase = Fase
Neutral = Nul or Neuter
Earth = Aarding
Protective Earth = Aardbeschermings

Fuse = Zekering
Fuse box = Zekeringskast
Main fuse = Hoofdzekering
Main disconnect = Hoofdschakelaar
RCD = Differentieelschakelaar

Junction box = Aaftakdoos
Socket = Stopcontact
Light switch = Lichtschakelaar

Blackout = Stroompanne (e spelled out)
Electrician = Electrieker

1 way switch= 1 polige schakelaar
2 way = wissel (which means change)
intermediate = kruis (which means cross)
2 pole = dubbelpolige
push button = drukknop

By the way paul, you didn't answer my last post?:

Paul,
Yes, that's what I meant: a "serial operated cotactor" with push buttons. Is there no shorter word for this in English? In Dutch we call it a "Impulsschakelaar" - schakelaar meaning switch. We use them very often over here whenever we have 3 or more switches for 1 light e.g. long corridors or stairs. What do you use in England in such circumstances? 3 and 4 way switches? Even when you have 5 switches? Hre it would be seen more like a recepy for spaghetti.
Another application is when the push buttons are next to swimming pools, then we use a 12V or 24V version. We can then use very thin wire fore the switches e.g. 0.6 mm2.

C-H,

Thanks but it wasn't that important, I was just curious.


[This message has been edited by Belgian (edited 07-12-2003).]

Sorry Eli -- I remember reading the questions but must have missed them when I went back to post.....

There's no single standard term in English for your Impulsschakelaar. I'm not sure if any of the industrial guys might have a commonly used term for them, but they're just not very common at all in residential work. In electronics we would normally call such a device a latching relay.

Where a light needs to be controlled from two locations we normally wire with two regular 2-way (U.S. = 3-way) switches. For extra control from third and subsequent locations we insert intermediate switches (U.S. = 4-way).

Contactors for remote operation which mount in a panel on a standard DIN rail are easily obtainable, but very rare in residential wiring.

Eltako. For stairway lighting in apartment buildings these have been in use for at least 50 years here and they're slowly gaining in residential too. Personally I don't like them, but it's sure easier only to run 2 wires everywhere instead of running full 3 or 4 way wiring. However, I don't trust anything with too much electronics inside if there's a less complex solution.