I've taken these extracts from the current issue of the IEE publication "Wiring Matters," which was discussed in a thread started by Joe recently.

{.....} indicates where I've cut sections of the article to keep it reasonably short here.


Well, that certainly raises quite a few questions in my mind, but I'll throw this out for discussion before I jump in with my 2 cents' worth.

The documentation referred to in the article is available in PDF format at: www.safety.odpm.gov.uk/bregs/consult/electric/pdf/build.pdf

(You have to read through the usual bureaucratic waffle to find the salient points. The extracts above seem to summarize it pretty well, though.)

{Edited for typos!}


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-25-2003).]

This proposal has aroused much anger among the British D-I-Y community, as virtually all electrical work will require a license.

O K then try this for size.

How then if these rules are to be brought into play do we prevent, we ? mrs, or mrs, D I Y disaster from purchasing such items ?

do we A, stop the local DIY store from
selling such equipment ?

B, stop the local supply houses from
selling to non approved,
or qualified contractors ?

( i know of one supply house that on a weekend sells more to the DIY than the genuine contractor )

C, prevent advertisers in magazines
from retailing via the mail all
sorts of equipment for the
installation industry ?
and another question,

How are they going to stop it ??

Any body want my soap box. ?

sorry abouth that but i get sick and tired of replacing equipment that has been installed incorrectly and usually dangerously by people have, in my proffessional opinion, no, or minimal knowledge of what the hXll they are doing,

John H
proud to be an electrician. !

Education is perhaps a solution. If people weren't allowed to drive at all unless they had a license for driving not only cars but also motorcycle, lorries and buses, the roads would be full of illegal and dangerous drives in both the cars and the lorries. If you allow people to learn how to drive a car, they hopefully realise that they should stay out of the lorry.

Paul,
This sounds amazingly like, what is happening over here, although we already have a system of self-certification, amongst us electrical people.
Now the local Councils, want to throw their weight around, in this debate.
They are looking to go back to the old "permit system".
It's not thier job, to control us, we have shown that we are competent, what gives?.

OK, I'll climb up onto my side of the soapbox now...

First of all, who exactly is going to be responsible for examining installations and approving them? If it's somebody with the relevant electrical background, then fine, but this proposed new law is going into the general building regulations. Those are usually enforced by a building officer from the local council (which, for our U.S. members, is pretty much the British equivalent of "City Hall"). Are we going to see the existing building control officer sent on some 3-day seminar which supposedly then makes him an "expert" in electrical wiring?

How about some of the items quoted in the article? Let's see:
So it will be acceptable to follow either British rules, or those of any other EU country. Does this mean that the inspector will need detailed knowledge of 15 different sets of regulations? That's what it seems to imply.

From tabvle 1, listing work which need not be notified:
So the guy who has no idea what he is doing can still tear into the wiring, leaving the ring broken, or string 4 extra outlets on a spur from a ring, with no permit/inspection.

And John Doe with his hammer and one screwdriver is going to know if it is suitable???
Meaning what, exactly? And who decides?

Er, does this imply that technically one needs to notify the council when replacing a blown fuse??? I know, I'm being pedantic and they probably meant changing an MCB or installing a fuse carrier of a different rating, but that's not what it says!

Why should something this important be deliberately excluded from the new requirements?!

Leaving aside these complaints about the way the law may be drafted, how is it going to be enforced?

For a new building or a major renovation/extension where "planning permission" (building permit) has been granted and the council will inspect the work, then maybe it can be enforced.

But when someone decides to do some internal works in his own home, how is the council even going to know that he's changing the wiring?

There are already rules that require notification for certain internal building works, connecting new bathroom appliances, etc. The general rule of thumb around this area is that you don't tell the council anything, if it can be avoided. That means that if it's inside the house, where nobody can see what's going on, don't tell them! One contributory factor here is that the local council is so hopelessly slow and inefficient that a simple 2-week project could end up dragging on for months. (They sometimes take 8 weeks to just send out a requested form!)

So, as John has asked, how would they go about stopping people? I can just see some bureaucrat dreaming up a scheme whereby stores selling electrical fittings require sight of a council wiring permit before they'll sell to Joe Public. More paperwork and expense for everybody! And how would any such scheme deal with the exceptions listed in table 1?

"Sir, are these sockets you're buying for a new circuit or to add to an existing circuit? If they're for a new circuit, I need to see a permit."

I don't think THAT would work!

Besides, if you prevent people from buying the proper materials for the job, they'll probably just try to "get by" with salvaged, sometimes damaged fittings, flexible cords instead of cable, and so on.

I've seen some attrocious wiring, and the aim of improving the safety of electrical installations is laudible, but I can't see how these regulations are going to have much impact, except on new homes and major renovation projects. For the most part, the rules will just be ignored, as they already are in many other fields.


I agree with C-H here. We need education rather than regulation. With the rising popularity of DIY in recent years, it wouldn't be a bad idea to see some of the public safety films on TV again, like we had in the 1970s.

OK, rant over....... For now!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-27-2003).]

Reading both uk.d-i-y and de.rec.heimwerken I noticed that the attitude is completely different. The Germans are quick at hand with the advice "call a pro and have it done safely" if something exceeds standard DIY jobs (electricity, gas, structural,...) and if the poster's questions seem to indicate that s/he doesn't know enough about the subject. On the contrary, the UK guys keep telling people: You can do everything and f*ck on the officials, they're just there to stand in your way! I remember reading a comment about the BS wiring regs.: Well, what you want to do isn't up to the regs., but since they're not mandatory just go on and do whatever you want. These guys even keep advising people to do live work on the meter tails to avoid having the PoCo reseal their fuse and save a few quid.
Seems we have to change an entire attitude.

The Danish dk.teknik.el takes it a step further: As soon as you ask anything related to wiring, you get the "call a pro"...

Borrowing the soap box for a moment:

There are e.g. gun licenses, which you need to buy guns and bullets. I see no problem in requiring a license of some sort to sell people the electrical gear, provided it is not out of reach to ordinary people.

OK, I'll admit: I want to get myself a license so I can do some limited work, but I don't intended to work as an appy for years to get one.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 03-27-2003).]

I have to agree with the discussion here, and it is going to be hard to stop unlicensed work. In Australia you have always needed an electrical license to do wiring even technically to change a plug top.
The thing is people still do their own work and leave traps for the next poor unsuspecting person. We have just moved town and the house we bought has DIY electrical work, I was under the house cabling computer networks, when I saw electrical connections exposed, not nice when you have kids who play under the house.
I hope one day they at least bring back inspections when properties change hands.

Dapo,
Over here in 1992, the Electrical Contracting Industry, was given a massive kick, where it would hurt the most.
They introduced regulations, that would allow the average guy, to install, relocate, disconnect wiring and fittings, much the same as an Electrician, provided that the work was inspected AND was CONNECTED by the inspector, to the switch-board.
Since then, I have never heard of any Inspector performing this service, for any DIY work.
I think that all this legislation has done, is to drive all un-licenced work, further underground.
Someone's going to cop the results of this, one day, and if it's me, look out!.

Paul,
I'd just like to pick up on a point in the List of Non-Notifiable work, that I think has been overlooked.
IMHO, I think that the Upgrading of an Earthing/Equipotential Bonding Conductor, is a task that should be left to suitably qualified persons only.
The Electrical Safety level of an Installation, DEPENDS on it's Earthing/Bonding conductors, should one of these be of inadequate size, installed incorrectly or damaged during installation, who will carry the can for the deaths/injuries caused, by this, because any DIY person would plead ignorance.

Indeed. As I said above, I don't think the new rules will have much impact anyway as they'll be almost unenforceable, but assuming that those drafting them into law actually believe that they will be complied with, why on earth (<-pun intended! ) would they deliberately exclude something this important?

I don't know whether you recall, but some time ago I mentioned a "DIY Electrics" video tape that I saw a few years ago. It was supposedly an "easy" guide to simple electrical projects for the house -- Adding an outlet, changing a simple light circuit to 2-way (3-way) switching, and so on.

The instructions given for some of these tasks were confusing enough, and made the mistake of assuming that the existing wiring was done in one particular configuration. Some parts were so confusing that I had to sit down with paper, pencil, and pause button and sketch out what was going on in order to follow it, so what hope was there for the average DIYer?

But the final section of that tape actually went on to installing equipotential bonding conductors. I couldn't figure out just why they included that with the other projects on the tape.

The whole thing was so badly presented that when I returned it (it was from the local library) I voiced my concerns over its content to the librarian and suggested that they withdraw it.

Paul,
I've seen them DIY video's before and they certainly rang true to the theory that:
There are those that DO it and there are those that write about it!.
I have had the same problem, in Ashburton, with people getting library books that are written to the UK Wiring Regs and I have had many a confusing phone call asking questions about BESA boxes and Consumer Units.
I must say, I know what a BESA box is now anyway, if nothing else!.

Paul,
I have just downloaded and read the proposed changes to your Regulations.
And my God, that writing style is hard to read.
But could I please raise a few points from the text of that document:

• The last parts of this text mentions the use of RCD's, quite a bit, the PC way, these days to effect Electrical Safety, is to just slap an RCD on it,regardless of what the standard of the work is like.
• It is interesting to note the difference in Safety levels(No. of Injuries/Deaths),up to the metering/main switch and on the other side of the PoCo equipment, is this because no DIYer would dare touch a supply they could not turn off?.
• IMHO all of this legislation could be avoided by bringing back across-the-board Inspections of all new installation work, regardless of who did it.
• I had an unusual feeling of deja-vu reading that document, I read one similar to it in 1992, over here, in 1993, we got Self-Certification and there is not one Electrician that I have met yet that likes this system, it targets the wrong people.

There do seem to be those who look upon the RCD as the universal answer to electrical safety. The way that these things are sometimes (often) marketed in the U.K. is something which concerns me.

Too many times the advertising or sales pitch implies "Fit an RCD and there's no way you can get a bad electric shock." It doesn't actually say that in so many many words, but that's the impression that many people are left with.

I've had to explain numerous times that athough the RCD certainly offers a high degree of protection and is to be recommended, it cannot guard against all possible electrocution hazards. It doesn't even offer the level of protection of the 4-6mA trip American GFI, being a 30mA type. And if someone gets across phase and neutral, and there isn't simultaneously at least 30mA getting to ground through him, it's not going to help one bit, is it?

Maybe, but as far as domestic is concerned here I think that most everyone realizes that everything up to and including the meter is PoCo owned, sealed, and off-limits. No need to touch it for your extra lighting or outlets (unless someone was trying to get "free juice", of course ).

By the way, even a lot of otherwise fairly knowledgeable DIYers have no idea about outside lines and distribution. I've had quite a few ask about the power coming in on "those 240V supplies with three wires across the top of the pole." Turns out they were looking at 11kV distribution lines!


Despite the lack of any legal requirements for domestic wiring in England, there was a time when at least the PoCo guy who came to install the meter and connect power would carry out basic tests: Earth continuity, insulation, etc. Somewhere along the way, that got swept aside and the attitude of most now seems to be "What happens when it leaves the meter is nothing to do with us."

Paul,
I never knew that the American GFCI had a trip current of only 4-6mA, I assumed that it was 30mA, like ours, this is half of the 10mA level we use over here for Patient Care areas in Medical Facilities!.
Regarding inspections, I think that these days, the Dollar(or Pound!), seems to be more important, than silly ideas about Public safety.
I guess this is why the buck keeps getting passed between legislatory authorities,
it's the old NIMBY attitude again.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 04-18-2003).]

I also think it is a shame that Rcd's are seen by people as the be all and end all of safety. It is not only the average person either, some of our electricians and regulators seen them in the same light.
We have a rule in Australia and I assume the same rule in NZ, but Trumpy could confirm that, which says that when designing a circuit it does not have to meet the requirements for loop impedance if an RCD is fitted. Why through out good circuit design and rely on a safety device, why can't they supplement each other?
I have also talked to a lot of electricians about the way they run cables in ceiling spaces and how they prevent conductive building material from contacting the back of points, their answer is that if in the unlikely event anything becomes live there is no great danger, because it is on a safety switch. I then point out to them we had a pretty bad case here where a person received a shock in the ceiling and ended up in intensive care, the circuit was on a safety switch, but it didn't stop him falling through the ceiling, since the shock caused him to lose his balance on the trusses.

We now have limited inspections back in some states of Australia now, and it is finding a lot of disturbing mistakes by contractors.

At least inspecting a small proportion of contractors work is bringing back and educational benefit to the industry, what is the general thought out there?

Dapo,
Would you believe that I can't find a reference to that clause in the AS/NZS3000:2000?, it's probably in there, I just can't find it ATM.
Regarding your comments on the use of the RCD as a panacea to electrical safety, the fault-loop impedance is one of the most important quantities in an installation, if its too high, you get a problem of not having enough Excess Current to "blow" protective devices.
I don't personally use RCBO's(MCB-RCD), I like to be able to select my own form of Short-circuit protection, as not all installations are the same.
Talking about accidents caused by RCD protected circuits, one of the first call-outs I ever done as a Faults-man, was in a public hall, where a Plumber was electrocuted when he contacted the Foil insulation under the floor, which was live at 230V and it was due to a circuit that was on a RCD, too, which didn't trip, because the mechanism had frozen solid(It had NEVER been checked regularly) and I had to hit the toggle to even move it from the ON position.
Dapo, if they started fully inspecting things over here again, we'd have to build another two prisons!.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 04-25-2003).]

by CH

The problem with that is that it screws over those of us who do know what we're doing and are smart enough to call a pro when we KNOW it's out of our league.

Yes, there should be people who should be kept away from electric work at all costs, but:

I wouldn't be happy if I had to take a day off from work to go to City Hall to pull a permit and pay a US$10 fee (for example) to change the cracked US$1.50 wall socket or switch in my house. Would you?

Frankly I don't know what the best thing to do is...becasue I'm biased. I have a grasp of the basic concepts and know my limits and restricting the sale of basic wiring devices to licenced people only would screw me over.

Sven,
I think that a like-for-like replacement should be excepted, in this case.
Only where new installation work takes place
should there be a restriction.
One thing I would like to see, is that they have people at hardware stores that sell electrical gear, to have some sort of idea about the basics of Electricity or Electrical work, how are they supposed to know what wiring system is legal or what type of fiiting complies for such and such installation?.

I'm glad to see that there are others who agree that the RCD is not the magic panacea to all ills that some believe it to be.

Loop impedance and the speed with which an OCPD will break the circuit is a primary consideration in the British IEE Regs. as well. On a direct phase-to-earth short the protective device must open the circuit within 0.4 sec. for normal outlets.

One indirectly associated problem is in the many rural homes here which use TT earthing, thus necessitating the use of a single main RCD. A ground fault on any circuit trips out the main and plunges the whole house into darkness. I wonder how many accidents that has caused? Personally, I would like to see the TT installations abandoned as soon as possible in favor of TN-C-S (PME/MEN system) in rural areas. It seems unlikely, however, as our Regs. are gradually moving closer to a common European standard, and TT seems to be favored heavily in much of Europe.

On permits, I don't see requiring them for simple repairs and replacements as a viable scheme. People would just ignore the law as they already do for gas. And if you prevent them from buying the appropriate parts from a store, they'll probably try to "get by" with salvaged second-hand materials.

Paul,
What is the required trip time (in uS) in the UK, at 30mA, for an RCD?.
What brands of RCD are most prevalent in the UK?.
You were saying about a single RCD knocking out all of the house, this is why I would not put an installation on the same RCD, a minimum of 3 RCD's is my way of working, two lighting and one 3 pole 230V for the Socket-Outlets.
Paul, how does TT differ from TN-C-S?.
As soon as you have a law, there will be some one out there that will circumvent it, just have a qualified person at each point where these things are purchased.

{Edited to remove misinformation }

On the matter of RCD's, trip times and TT systems:

The legal requirement in Sweden for an RCD that is intended as a life saving device breaking the current within 200 ms. Modern technology has long surpassed this and the RCD's you can buy trip in about 40 ms. I think the Brits have upgraded their regs to require 40 ms.

Improved technology has opened a window for short time delay (or perhaps they should be called ultra short time delay) which waits 10 ms to see if the fault goes away. (Reduces nuisance tripping)

The RCD on a TT system is not intended to save your life directly, therefore it can be allowed to take longer to trip. As Paul indicated, if a fuse or MCB is used as protection in case of a earth fault it only needs to trip in 400 ms for 200-277V systems and 800 ms for 120V systems. I think the RCD has a 200ms requirement, though.

Note the logic: If the MCB is used as protection, the voltage to earth at the fault will only be half of the nominal voltage: The rest is lost in voltage drop in the line conductor. (Assuming same resistance in earth and line conductors) In case of a TT system, the voltage a the fault can be close to the full nominal voltage as the current is much lower. This means the more current will flow through anyone being in contact with the protective earth.

The manufactures have begun making RCD's time delay. (I think I've seen values from 50 to 300 ms)

This means that you can put two RCD's in series, where the "main" RCD only trips in case the other RCD fails. This in turn means that a house on a TT system no longer need to plummit into darkness, unless the fault is on a circuit which is protected only by the "main" RCD.

There are long time delay RCDs too, which means that you can have several "layers" of protection, just like with fuses or breakers.

The world is getting better each day!

Some good information on RCDs on TLC's website: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Distribution/RCD.htm

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 04-25-2003).]

Another thread worth reviving.......

How has part P progressed? Anybody know? I've heard nothing more about it recently (although admittedly I haven't been looking! )

Paul I believe its doing very nicely, you wil be pleased to know its all systems go for Jan 2005.
I am sure I have had the list of runners and riders but cant find it! From memory its NICEIC, ECA, ZURICH Insurance Group, BSI, IEE, and another I cant remember the last one not many suprises realy. All good charitable organisations with sound pension funds. Will continue the search amongst the crap on my desk and confirm with a post late. The only certainty is its going to cost us money and business in the short and long term.
I have placed an on going order for paper to be delivered by the trailer load once a month, feel sure thats about the only extra I will need to cope with it all. Oh and a geezers comming round every half year with a trailer to shift the Bull S@!:.
I will sign off now and go and take my anti- cynicism tablets before retiring to the pit.

Found it! ELECSA is the other administering organisation for Part P more info on the Voltium webb site. Sorry I dont have the techy to do links.
Alan

Ah..... Thanks Alan. This looks like the site:

http://www.elecsa.org.uk/

I still say this is just not going to work, except for new buildings and really major renovation projects.

People in this country simply will not go running to their local council, begging permission to add a socket in their own home. They can introduce all the legislation and all the schemes they like, but the majority of DIY homeowners will simply ignore them, even if they are aware of their existence. The motto will just be "Don't tell them."

Tend to agree with you Paul, but its a big bucks fine if they get caught, and I the lecky will also face a hefty fine. It could finish up with quite a little industry snitching on your neighbour, ya know what I mean!!!

Just had a butchers at the Elecsa site they look well versed to look after the electrical industry, two years wxprience looking after double glazing association scheme. And we all know what double glazing does for you dont we!! Ah well only four more years to go....

No idea what the fines for not being good little boys and girls and telling the council will be, but how exactly do they propose to enforce it against the DIY homeowner?

Now if somebody decides to built a 400 sq. ft. extension without the council's permission, it's noticeable, and if somebody reports it within the required time period (is it 3 years?) then legal problems could follow.

But wiring is different. It doesn't show on the outside of the house (well, most of it doesn't!). There are no official records of what electrical systems are installed in homes. So at least in the early stages, even if some council pen-pusher did try to query something, the homeowner just says "Oh that as done back in 2004." How does the council prove otherwise, unless every new device is going to be date coded?

But proof is really beside the point. How is the council going to know that somebody has added a socket, or changed a light switch in his own house to even query whether some "illegal" work has been carried out in the first place?

As far as I can see, for the average DIYer the new regulations will be totally unenforceable.

Just found this on the ELECSA site regarding registration for approved persons. I hadn't realized either that even with such a certified person carrying out works the requirement to report to the council is still there, just handled by ELECSA.

£500 per year???!!! (After reclaiming VAT). They gotta be kidding!

Quote,
All good charitable organisations with sound pension funds.

Paul common be a reasonable man, if you dont contribute mate who's going to pay these geezers pension's. You cant expect them to come out of the ivory towers and start getting floorboards up and scrawling arround attics in their Goochy shoes and suits can you. Mind you wouldn't it be nice to see. And how long do you think it will remain at £1.50 per installation for. We seem to have to support an untold number of leaches one way and another in this trade dont we. Must be close to as many assessors as do'ers at the moment all having to be paid the $ out of our effort. The bottom line is as you rightly say they aint a gona be able to police it properly, and as usual the folks who play by the rules will get canned again. Oh Im a bloody old moaner aint I.

Paul,
I must say I agree with your comments about DIY work above.
I work in with a lot of PoCo Inspectors as part of my work and some of the stories that they've told me about DIY work that they have seen over the years, here would curl your hair!.
But at the end of the day, how do you prove who actually did the work and when exactly it was done?.
This is one huge stumbling block here and it also means that a lot of people that install dangerously Non-compliant work get away with it Scot-free!.
Other side of the coin, those of us here, like me, that choose to work inside the law and have things like Registration and a Practising Licence, are usually the first people that are "in the gun", when the simplest of things go wrong, it's just not a level playing field in my eyes!.
That ELECSA Certified Person Scheme (read:gravy-train)sounds really expensive and IMHO it should be a lot cheaper than that if they want people to join it.
BTW, what does their assessment entail?.

Here you go Mike:
http://www.elecsa.org.uk/Reqs_Costs.asp

Proper test equipment and inspection forms etc. are reasonable requirements. But then they go overboard, in my opinion.

Alan,
Maybe you're being cynical, but I'm right behind you and equally suspiscious of the true motives.

This is the government that was going to cut red-tape and reduce the expense of running a business? Yeah, go tell it to the Marines....