Prompted by Joe's post in another area.

Symbols are becoming much more common these days, under the guise that they provide an international means of communicating basic information.

How useful do you feel that symbols really are though? A few basic symbols are pretty obvious, but beyond that, their meaning might be clear only to someone who has been taught that meaning. It's easy for somebody who has grown up with a certain symbol to believe that its meaning is obvious to the whole world.

Here's a non-electrical example of some road signs:


O.K., now all of you in Continental Europe will understand this combination of road-signs perfectly.

But what about our North American friends? Can you name all the messages being given by this assortment of signs in France?



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-01-2003).]

You are supposed to have a driver's license to drive. Unlike many other signs, you aren't expected to understand these signs intuitively.

(From the guy who failed the driving test three times. Once for driving too slow...)

C-H said: "Unlike many other signs, you aren't expected to understand these signs intuitively."

I don't know. The top left one is pretty much international in the non-verbiage (American influenced) parts of the world. Ah, but looking at it closely there's something not quite clear near the bottom of the white part of the disk. That could be the fly in my ointment!

I know the top one, and think I remember the bottom one but (having an unfair advantage) will remain silent for now.

The one that really gets me though is the two white horizontal bars on the left hand pole. New one on me .

I could never quite get the ones that say 'Rappel' under the speed or whatever.

It's the 'priorité a droit’ rule however that nearly killed me taking a casual bicycle around a French village on a family camping trip, and I know there is a connection here above. Having a car come screaming out of a side street without stopping as I was merrily cycling down the main street was a heart-stopping (nearly permanently) moment!

Ireland has a very confusing (for europeans) combination of US, European and a few uniquely irish signs in use simultaniously.

e.g. anything in a red circle is permitted / obligitory (same as a blue and white sign in the rest of EU) total opposite meaning?
http://www.goireland.com/LOW/CARHIRE/car_rental_road_signs.htm

gives you a good idea of what the signs look like

Some very strange signs on motorway entry/exit ramps

Huge signs with "Wrong way turn back!!" (if you try to go the wrong way)
"go dead slow!"
"Get in lane NOW!"
"Think!"

This is a situation where our ÖAMTC (car and motorbike touring club) would run berserk because of too many signs at one point.

"WRONG WAY" signs are found on expressway ramps in the States as well. I've often wondered how and when Ireland came to adopt the American/Australian style yellow diamonds for warnings. Personally, I prefer them to the British/Continental red-bordered triangles, as they show up better.

It's true that one needs to study road-signs for a drivers license, but throughout practically all of the Western world a license from one country allows one to drive as a visitor in another.

Yes, Hutch, the top left sign in the red circle is what you think it is; the patch at the bottom must have been a peeled off sticker, or something like that. British drivers won't have any trouble with that particular sign, but I'd bet that at least 90% have no idea what the yellow/white diamond means.

I have always thought those "Rappel" signs were just reminders. (As opposed to speed change.)

What is that yellow then? Here it would mean main road (= right of way). (That is a sign I think 90% of the drivers know...)

C-H, second that with the yellow-white diamond.

Yes, the yellow/white diamond in France is the standard European "priority road" sign, meaning that you have right of way on the thru-road unless posted signs say otherwise.

For Americans who are now totally lost ("But isn't that normal?"), it links up with Hutch's comments about priorité a droit. In the absence of a priority sign, you have to yield to anything approaching from the right in France. Yes, even if you are on a main street and the turning to your right is a tiny side alley, traffic emerging from it has right of way. The priority sign here (used extensively around Europe but unknown in the U.K.) means that you have right of way and that side roads will have stop or yield signs. Strange to us in Anglo-Saxon countries where the straight ahead route normally has right of way, but that's the way they did it! There's an "end of priority" sign which is similar, but with a thick black bar crossed diagonally through it, which indicates that you once again have to yield to the right.

The top left sign means "no passing." A similar sign exists in Britain, except that the red and black cars aee the other way around.

The D562 plate is just a highway route number.

As for the two horizontal bars below the town name sign, I thought they were just spares left from a sign which had been removed, but I've received an e-mail suggestion that they might be a sign for military operations. It doesn't matter if nobody else even recognizes these bars as a sign in this case of course, but it just goes to show how obscure some signs can be!

C-H, yes the French "RAPPEL" plate under a sign just means that it's a reminder of a previously posted sign, most usually a speed limit. The RAPPEL always seems superfluous to me. Over here we just have a repeat of the speed limit sign in a slightly smaller version.

Oh, by the way, there is one other message hidden in this array of signs that nobody else has mentioned yet. And as a driver in France, you are supposed to know it! Any guesses?

(P.S. I don't mean the blue "keep right" sign on the island.)


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-03-2003).]

I'm not sure exactly but I imagine it's to do with the town name sign surrounded by the red border, i.e. one is entering a municipal area. When you leave a French town/village the name is displayed again but with a diagonal red line through it. I assume that any obligation the driver was under in the municipal area is now removed. Just a guess.

BTW one thing I do enjoy about French road signs in general is their height. In France they are short and at drivers’ eye level rather than high up a pole. Some peculiarities though. On direction signs in a town at a junction one is presented with a destination town (or obscure village) and ‘Autre Routes’. So if the town name means nothing to you, you keep following ‘Other Routes’ until you have circumnavigated the town centre and ended up back where you started. It’s then time to plumb for a name or look for some obscure village en route to your destination.

Tying this thread back to things electrical though, Paul made a comment regarding the diamond as opposed to the triangle for warnings on roads – and it was interesting to see that Ireland has chosen to follow the North American/Australian standard rather than the European one. When one sees danger/warning signs on equipment (including electrical) in the US it is on a triangle and instruction/computer manuals draw attention to potential problems by using a triangle as well – not a diamond.

For interest, South Africa used the European style triangles, circles, etc. with their red borders but inside the background was dark blue with the numbers/symbols/figures etc. in white. In the last 10 years the signs have changed to the standard European convention of black on white in a read border. Compulsion signs/minimum speeds are in white on a solid blue circle.

A sign that cased me great amusement at the time (1982) was in Zimbabwe on the road to Kariba Dam by the Zambian border. It was in two parts – a red triangle with solid yellow centre above a yellow square with the picture of a huge trumpeting elephant on it. We joked about it but then found ourselves weaving around the largest piles of dung that I have ever seen on a highway!

At the opposite end of the scale I have just come across this one.

Hutch,
If you haven't come across it, there is a whole collection of such humorous signs at the Road Trip America website.

You're on target with the May-sur-Orne town sign. The red border indicates that a 50km/h (31 MPH) speed limit applies, in the absence of any other signs to the contrary. The name crossed through diagonally in red when leaving town also indicates that the open-highway speed limit of 90km/h (56 MPH) once again applies.

Those who have lived in the U.K. will know that we have an equally (if not more) obscure rule which specified a 30 MPH limit in a built-up area. The latter has a complicated definition that an area is considered built-up if the street lights are less than a certain distance apart. Fortunately, 99% of the time the local council posts a normal 30 speed sign anyway. Who can measure the distance between lights while driving along?

As you say, getting onto symbols more relevant to electricity, the teiangle warnings on equipment are found everywhere these days. But have you noticed that when printed in color they use a yellow background?

I sometimes wonder whether some of these symbols are really necessary. A lightning bolt warning against the terminals of a HV power supply, for example -- Isn't it reasonable to assume that anyone with cause to use such apparatus is already aware of the dangers of such high voltage?

Should we also put such warning symbols on every wall outlet, just in case?

The ESB (Irish Power Company) seems to use a big flash symbol with a guy cringing in agony beside it in blue & white with a "!"

followed by "Electricity Keep Away!"
or "Risk of Death! Keep Away!" (using the word death really does make you think.. High Voltage / High Tension etc doesn't have the same ring to it!)

They put "electricity keep away" and a flash symbol on EVERY single distribution post!! Small yellow plate.

Risk of Death & Keep Away, Stay Away etc.. is usually on substations (district step-down transformers) or pole transformers for individual houses..
or on any high tension cabling. There's a symbol of a guy and an electric flash and the guy looks in pain!

As for Irish road signs... we never particularly cared about European standards/British standards in the past so we developed our own system. The argument now is that the signs are clearly understandable to europeans and since we drive on the opposite side of the road it makes sense to have different looking roads. We've also got a lot of big yellow signs with "Drive on the Left written in 5 main european languages" scattered along main routes and in touristy areas.

The only sign that is confusing is the old regulatory sign which was a symbol in a red circle.. e.g. Keep left is a left arrow in a red circle.. apparently this means the total oppsite in most EU countries?? The regulatory sign (e.g. keep left) is being replaced by a white symbol on a blue background.

When something's forbidden in Ireland it's in a red circle with a line thru it .. No parking, no entry (which is a straigh ahead arrow in a circle crossed out!!!) Which makes more logical sense than that red & white bar thing used in the UK and Europe.

I find the yellow diamonds with a black symbol for warning signs much higher impact though. Although maybe that's just because that's what I'm programmed to see as a warning sign.

Road markings are relatively unique to Ireland too.

White centre line with a yellow margin (outer line) and a system of reflectors (cats eyes) before junctions the usual yellow margin reflectors go green for 300 meters before a junction making them very easy to spot at night.

Currently all distances are in KM but Speed limits are still in MPH (As most cars in the 1970s when we changed were in MPH only as they were british versions) That's changed now and apparently the NRA (national roads athority, not to be confused with the US organisation of the same name) is due to start putting up signs in KMPH which apparently will look clearly different to the current MPH ones! I can just imagine little old ladies being pulled over for doing 100mph on a country road being totally confused !

Rarely seen in Europe and North America from the South African Department of Transport





I can say from personal experience that the middle one tastes good – don’t miss it!!



[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 01-04-2003).]

There are a couple of warning signs near the marshes here which depict a frog! Not as impressive as an elephant, but then this is England....

DJK,
I agree that the yellow diamonds give better visibility. I'd gotten so used to them in the States that the first time I came over to Ireland it seemed strange to see familiar looking warning signs while having to drive on the left! I noticed that your traffic lights (the few that exist!) follow the American/French pattern of just going straight from red to green as well (UK lights go to red-&-amber for a short while before green). I take it from your comments that the conversion of signposts to kilometers is now complete. When I was there last there were still some of the old white posts marked in miles (I think I even saw a couple which still had T and L road numbers instead of N and R - I don't know when the latter were introduced, 1980s?).

One of my complaints about the UK/Euro signs is that some are very inconsistent and illogical. No left turn, no right turn, etc. show the appropriate action in a red circle, croseed through with a diagonal red bar. That makes sense. So why then, do the signs prohibiting some other things NOT have the red bar? (e.g. the sign for "no bicycles" just shows a bicycle inside a red circle - no diagonal cross through it).

Back to electricity: When I was a kid in the 1970s our distribution cabinets, sub-station enclosures and poles had simple red and white signs with wording such as "Danger - High Voltage" or "High Voltage - Keep out." These days, the yellow triangle and lightning bolt symbols are everywhere:


(Taken from this thread. )

This one is quite restrained. Some of the new notices then go into a whole paragraph of smaller print underneath: "Touching or approaching this equipment may result in death or severe injury..." blah, blah, blah.

I wonder how much of this is caused by the dreaded "L" word.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-05-2003).]

you were obviously living in the middle of no-where.. if you lived in Dublin, Cork etc you'd be regularlly driven insane by traffic lights that seem to be set up specifically to delay you as much as possible.

The sequence is amber then red amber meaning to stop if it's safe to do so. There's no amber before green (never understood the logic behind that? signal to rev your engine?)

We've also got flashing amber which is effectively yeild (to cars/pedestrians) and flashing red has appeared more recently (in cork anyway) and apparently has the same meaning as a stop sign.

So on a 4+ way junction if the lights failed the higher priority route would flash amber and the lower ones would flash red.

Well, I'm afraid I didn't think much of Dublin City, so I just passed through it to/from the ferry terminal as quickly as possible. I traveled across the midlands area by way of Athlone, then mostly around Co. Roscommon, Sligo, Mayo, Leitrim and Cavan. I avoided most of the big towns, so I guess that's why it seemed that lights were rare. (Never got as far south as Cork or into any of the other big towns such as Galway or Limerick.)

The flashing amber and red signals you describe sound as though they're another idea that Ireland has adopted from America. In many U.S. towns you find that during quiet periods the lights at an intersection are switched to flashing amber and flashing red on the thru-route and side roads respectively. You'll also find places where there aren't regular traffic lights but where they have installed flashing red lights to emphasize a regular STOP sign.

I agree on the peculiar U.K. red-&-amber phase. I've never seen the point of it either, and all it seems to do is encourage the more impatient driver to jump the line before green. We don't have the red and amber arrows that are used on American lights either, only the green arrow.

I have come across the sequence:- Red; Red+Yellow; Green only in Iceland and Argentina (Must have been good customers!) - The Argies have red telephone and pillar boxes too. If there are any others with red+yellow aspects out there, I'd be keen to know.

I too have no understanding why these aspects should be so!

Ireland also has those amber flashing arrows - meaning that you can turn left/right but must yeild to any on-coming traffic. Generally they're used to let pedestrians across a slip road (i.e. the lights go red intermitently for a crossing and then back to flashing orange arrow) or in various junction set ups.

Loads of UK tourists seem totally confused by the flashing red and the orange flashing arrows. they presume that Ireland should obey UK rules (not an entirely stupid presumption considering that we do drive on the left too) and I've seen people drive thru flashing orange arrows into traffic and one incident of a guy driving thru flashing red at speed into a police car while hurling abuse about broken traffic lights! (they slip into flashing sequence during the night) needless to say he didn't get much sympathy from the police!

Hope you don't mind me hopping on in here from the USA...

Prior to a steady "DON'T WALK" there is a flashing "DON'T WALK" to warn that one should not start crossing the street. I was once told that when one sees the flashing "DON'T WALK" it really means, "DON'T WALK...RUN!"

I recall hearing my cousin being quizzed on the traffic lights.

"Red?" "Stop."
"Green?" "Go."
"Yellow?" "HURRY UP!"

No wonder so many states are making the requirements more stringent for younger drivers to obtain a learner's permit!

P. S. If you want the official list of American signs, here's the link:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/

It amazes me how some people go to another country and just automatically assume that everything should be the same as at home.

The pedestrian signals are another difference. As ThinkGood mentioned, American lights go from white (WALK) to flashing red (DON'T WALK), then to steady red. On British pedestrian lights (now all the symbol type) the flashing phase is on the green, i.e. steady green. flashing green, steady red). Historical note: The old-style U.K. pedestrian signals were more like U.S. types, a red WAIT light and a white CROSS NOW light.

France also uses flashing amber arrows at some intersections, with the same meaning as you describe for Ireland. In some places they add a flashing version of the pedestrian crossing (red triangle) sign (or the older PRIORITE AUX PIETONS light) as an extra warning that drivers turning right must yield to pedestrians.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-08-2003).]

Pedestrian Crossings in Ireland have the following:

Red Man (Don't cross)
Green Man (Cross now)
Amber man (sometimes flashing green) (HURRY UP about to change to red man)

busy crossings also have a count down on them when the crossing is red..

So you'll have a little display over the crossing lights with a count down from 99 seconds to green. The idea was to stop people dodging across busy roads as they know how long they need to wait b4 the lights will change.

Since we're talking about traffic lights in a electric forum, can I ask how do they work in your country? Always with a countdown system, with sensors or with a different system?

Here they have invented (as a trial project) traffic lights which turn to red if you are sppeding. At least that way you don't get a fine for speeding and you have to stop! What do you think?

Sweden also had a flashing green man before red, but he has disappeared: Harmonization with UN rules is blamed. (Yes, United Nations, not European Union)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 01-08-2003).]