This topic was sparked by a message in the uk.d-i-y NG.


What is your opinion about people doing electrical work in other countries, ignoring the local codes?

(There have been several people in uk.d-i-y who have reported that they have wired houses outside the UK. Few in the NG seem to object, since "UK wiring is superior to that of all other countries".)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 11-29-2002).]

lol! So much about the famous British modesty and understatement!
Seriously, I can understand why people want to have stuff wired like they're used to, but it may be dangerous, as locals who work on the installation in the future may not know about the specialities of this wiring system (especially with the British system incorporating rings and other peculiaritys, e.g. a completely different color coding). This can be very dangerous.

Despite many similarities, the U.S and Canada have separate electrical codes which are incompatible in some key areas.

Consequently, someone from the U.S couldn't just go to Canada and wire things the "American way" and vice versa.

Even here in the U.S., there can be big differences from state to state. Chicago's "all conduit" rule and the use of all-in-one service panels in the Western U.S. come to mind.

C-H,
You've beaten me to it! I've be meaning to post a thread asking how qualified each of us might feel to carry out work in another country, to that country's accepted standards/practices.

I've heard of many Brits rewiring houses (often in Spain) to British specifications with BS1363 outlets, ring circuits, etc. I know at least one couple who wanted to sell later and a prospective (Spanish) buyer was very interested but would only proceed if they had the receptacles replaced with Spanish types. (I sure hope they didn't just change the sockets and leave them all on a 30A ring.)

You'll find a great many people in the U.K. who subscribe to this belief, both electricians and laymen alike. I can never understand why they're so adamant about it, although in many cases I suspect that they don't really understand how things are done elsewhere.

Sure, British wiring has its good points, but in my opinion our wiring is far from being superior to that of "all other countries." Where else in the world would you find a washing machine, dryer, dishwasher, kettle, microwave oven, and maybe even a 2kW oversink heater all run on the same circuit? Where else will you find three T&E 2.5mm cables to a double receptacle all jammed into a box only 1 inch deep?

And just look at the way NM cable is casually routed into domestic fixture boxes compared to the neat Romex clamps found on American wiring.

Sorry, fellow Brits, but in my not-so-humble opinion some British practices are highly overrated in this country.

Well...that kills my somewhat hair-brained idea of putting in German sockets and corresponding wall boxes (kind of a nostalgic reason for doing so) when I did my apartment rewiring.

After a minute of him looking at me weird...the spouse and I both decided to stick with the proper American way of doing things (according to NEC and New York City codes).

I guess the idea of snapping Europlugs on all the ungrounded stuff and Schuko plugs on the grounded devices and/or wrestling with adapters didn't quite appeal to him either!!

And can you imagine the looks of puzzlement on someone who eventually wants to buy this place? Hehehehehe...

Oh yeah.....

"Who put all these dern funny-looking foreign receptacles in my apartment???!!!"

Maybe you should come to England. You could install any type of outlets you want and nobody can stop you.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-01-2002).]

Hmmm...
especially if you manage to get 230V single ph out of them...
yet even more surprise if somebody plugged in a german device and got 120V only!
Honestly, I guess I'd have done it. I once thought of wiring my new room 120V with NEMA sockets and toggle switches. However, the resulting problems were decouraging. Main reason was that it turned out to be impossible to get all the stuff from the US for a decnt price (including 14/2 and 14/3 ROMEX, masonry boxes (worst thing, wouldn't even get them at home depot if I told my relatives in MD to get the stuff for me), switches, receptacles, wirenuts, a small 1 or 2 space breaker enclosure (for transformer protection), enough NEMA plugs for all my stuff, and even wors 120V light bulbs), second problem was that I realized that I din't have even nearly enough 120V appliances to be able to do that (not too nice to run an extension cord to the next room whenever you want to use a vacuum cleaner, your stereo, your computer monitor, your laser printer,...).
What do you think about using Standard NEMA devices @230V? (Mostly receptacles, could use 277V switches). I know that some countries officially do so. (for example I have a Sony compact stereo from Thailand which operates on 220V only but has 18 AWG zip cord and a NEMA 1-15 plug labelled 6A 125V)

I had another look to see where the aforementioned thread had gone by now...


Luckily, someone put him straight on that last part...

"We know our way is superior", is a phrase used by every country in Europe. I jump up and down in my chair when I see Swedish officials expressing this view in the media... There isn't a single country in the world that doesn't claim to have invented grounding. I wouldn't care if it wasn't for the fact that this attitude lowers the real safety.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 12-01-2002).]

Cetainly not in the US! Even with a ring circuit, I consider this arrangement to be unacceptable.

Paul, I know you advocate doing away with the ring and having appliances on dedicated circuits NEC-style.

So, would it be against your regs to ignore convention and actually wire a kitchen as you wish, that is, with dedicated cicuits for large appliances and small appliance circuits?

Peter,
No, there's nothing against wiring a dedicated circuit for each major appliance and I do this on a regular basis with new or major remodel work. I always try to install a dedicated branch for a dryer, seeing as that constitutes a 3kW load which can be running continuously for 2 hrs. or more.

The ring is the most widely used circuit arrangement in domestic work, but radial circuits are also permitted by the Regs., subject to limitations on the floor area served by each branch.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-02-2002).]

A small point for all of you "dissing" the UK ring main.
Most washers, dryers & dishwahers on the UK market now, do not exceed 2.4/2.5Kw.
Kettles, toasters, microwaves etc are only on for a few minutes at a time in normal residential applications. Obviously dedicated circuits should be installed on commercial / guest houses / hotel washers & dryers, but they are often more than 13A or 3 ph anyhow.

>Most washers, dryers & dishwahers on the UK
>market now, do not exceed 2.4/2.5Kw.

Ah! Almost every large domestic appliance here in Sweden is now 2300W (= 10A). Domestic dryers and washers used to be 10A 3 ph. Guess what happened when they wanted to sell the same model in both UK, Germany and Sweden? Yes, that's correct: The least common denominator was 10A single phase. As more countries are added to the common market, all of which are rather poor, we aren't likely to see any change.

David,
It's true that a lot of the higher-powered appliances are only run for a few minutes at a time, but how often do people these days expect to be able to run almost everything simultaneously in the kitchen?

The kettle goes on for tea, the u-wave oven is heating some instant snack for the kids' breakfast, while mom & dad are preparing their breakfast toast or whatever. And I know several households where one load of laundry goes into the dryer and another goes straight into the washer, while the previous night's and the morning's breakfast dishes go into the dishwasher at practically the same time.

If we have to keep the ring, I'd at least like to see a much better distribution of load between the two (or more) ring final circuits.

The point I am trying to make here, is that of these large appliances the dryer would be the only steady 2.4 Kw load, the dishwasher & washing m/c only draw this amount during the heat up cycles. Kettles & toasters only take minutes.
I do agree that loading should be better distributed within ring mains. On new houses I tend to put the utility room (washer & dryer) on the ground floor ring & kitchen with dishwasher on a dedicated kitchen ring main.
When I lived in Oz, the kitchen was served by 1 16A radial circuit, the following appliances were connected:
kettle, microwave with grill, fridge-freezer, garbage disposal, cooker hood, dishwasher, toaster, the breaker NEVER tripped. I think there was also a socket in another part of the house connected to this circuit.
Another 16A radial circuit supplied all other sockets in the house including the laundry.

I guess it all comes down to just how the inhabitants go about their daily/weekly routine and how much equipment they expect to be able to use at the same time.

Your point about most of those large loads being on for only a few minutes is a valid one, and of course if the ring does carry, say 40A for a couple of minutes, we know it's not going to trip the 32A MCB immediately.

But I still feel that too many installations follow the exact letter of the 100 sq. meter rule while ignoring the other general requirements that all branch circuits should also take into consideration the expected load and usage.

My Dutch co-worker, who moved here about
15 years ago, had to re-sit his whole apprenticeship, in NZ here, as the NZ authorities, do not recognise a Dutch ticket or a German Electrical ticket as an Inspector, this guy had 20 years experience as an Inspector in Holland.
This, I feel, is beauracacy? gone mad.
The Immigration Service over here told him,
he could practice here, the Electrical Workers Registration Board had different ideas, makes me want to spit tacks.

It does sound completely overboard.

To have required him to sit an exam to demonstrate his knowledge of NZ practices and rules would have been reasonable -- After all, things are no doubt as different in NZ compared to The Netherlands as they are between England and the U.S.

But to require him go through an entire apprenticeship despite his numerous years of experience strikes me as being ridiculous.

Sounds like what in Britain would be a good candidate for a "Jobsworth" award. (From the type of official who says "More than my job's worth mate....")

Good call, Paul,
My sentiments exactly, looks like someone was looking for something to do.
People like this really annoy me!.

I found the French wiring regs (I think?):
http://www.ute-fr.com/domino2/SiteWeb.nsf/ZDEBUG/E071730DF75D5AD6C1256C8600583AC7/$File/Index_15100.htm

The pages use the word international repetedly, so it might be a competitor to the NEC... But, as it cost €235 (!) (same in $) and is in French only it is probably in for a tough match...

Yes, it looks like they are the official regulations. NF C 15-100 is the number that I was quoted by several people in the French electrical forum. (I assume that the NF stands for Norme Française.)

I thought that the IEE Regs./BS7671 had gotten expensive, but it looks like a real bargain compared to this publication!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-20-2002).]

I'm in Ireland and our kitchen wiring is a little weird.

De Detrich Oven & Induction Hob (Cooktop) - 3 phase @ 380V!!

Sockets - UK style fused plugs, 2 X rings total of 12 sockets. (include fridges, microwave, kettle, coffee machine etc)

Washing machine, dryer & dishwasher have dedicated circuits with 16 A sockets. Not sure why they decided to use different sockets, the machines use less than a 13A load.

3 phase 380V is also used for the water heater.

lighting sockets (small 3 round pins) are used around the house too for dimming / controlling free standing lamps. (Presumably to prevent someone from accidently plugging the vacuum cleaner into a lighting circuit)

Nice to have a member from the Republic of Ireland at last!

Are the 16A dedicated outlets the Schuko type? I'd heard that these were being used in Eire now, but never saw any last time I was there in 1998.

The round-pin lighting outlets are probably the BS546 type. They were once quite common in the U.K. too, but seemed to fall out of favor some years ago.

It sounds as though your house is fairly large to have a 3-phase supply, or is ESB adopting a more Continental policy now of installing 3-ph for all but very small installations?

The 16 amp outlets are shuttered schuko, although I've seen the old large round pin British style ones used in some installations (rare).

According to someone I know in the ESB what happend was: Originally Schuko was adopted by the ESB as standard and was installed in most places. The German standard voltage was also used (220V single phase and 380V 3phase @ 50hz) However, many electricians worked/trained in the UK and many appliences shipped with UK plugs and British standard fittings were far easier to buy in the pre-Euro days! Most electricians/retailers didn't want to have to buy from Gemany/NL etc in the days when IR£ 1 = UK£1 As the standards were only loosly inforced there was a general slide towards using UK/BS fittings instead of the ESB's original schuko based standard. I would also suspect that when (IS 401/A ) BS 1363/A was introduced it was seen as a safer alternative to unshuttered recessed schuko outlets (or old BS ones) even though modern versions are now shuttered the older ones here were regular causes of electrocution (as were the old british style ones). Children could easily insert foreign objects into the round holes. It was a totally incompatable standard and thus rendered the mixture of old BS and aging schuko installations obselete speeding up re-wiring of older properties.

The offical standard is now IS 401/A : 1993 which is BS 1363/A 13Amp plug/socket system. You may see Type approved by NSAI or a little "flash" symbol on plugs in the UK. The older BS plugs and sockets are not officially recognised at all.

Irish wiring standards however, while similar to the UK, are not necessarily the same and tend to follow European norms much more closley except for domestic plugs/sockets.

Schuko was commonly used pre-1970's in the Rep. of Ireland. From what I've seen it was always side-earthed, I've never seen an old socket that didn't have earthing. You can still purchase Schuko plugs and sockets in most electrical shops (even general department stores sell side-earthed schuko plugs) It was probabally a far superior standard to the older generation british plug/socket system which was an absolute brute. I have elderly relatives in Northern Ireland who still have that system and I know that unplugging the kettle is practically a 2man operation. They just don't seem to be designed to be pulled out!
Why are the pins so large? Did BSI think that people would be using portable 10KW appliences in the future?

Had another look at the distribution box (aka "fuse box)

Here's what we have:
Meter and ESB supplied isolating switch (sealed)
then...
Master Breaker : 63Amp
RCB marked "inter-diferential"
lighting circuits: 10A MCBs (8 of them)
sockets 20 A MCBs ( 2 rows of them) presumably rings?
central heating 6A
Immersion: 20A
Cookers: 20A

Yes, the old BS546 15A plugs are really hefty. For anyone who isn't familiar with the sheer bulk of these plugs, let me point out that the line and neutral pins are generally solid brass, about 1/4" diameter. The earth pin is more like 5/16".

Even the 5A version have line/neutral pins which are around 3/16" diameter -- Larger than the 16A-rated pins on a Euro/Schuko plug, although a little shorter.

That's an interesting history on the unofficial adoption of British plugs. I'd assumed that the Schuko standard had crept into the country in more recent years since Ireland's greater involvement with Continental Europe.

I wouldn't have thought that the 20A branches are rings; more likely to be normal radial circuits. Most of Europe uses 16A branches for sockets, but France often uses 20A instead.

And that's a lot of lighting circuits.

Did I forget to mention that the ESB (and ETCI [electro-technical council of Ireland]) has traditionally been a *BIT* obcessive about electrical safety! They'd make you use industrial-style waterproof fittings for your lawnmower if they could inforce it You do however get plenty of very dodgy & potentially dangerous DIY & cowboy jobs here, just like the rest of the world!

example of the newer tougher codes:

If you install a bathroom fan with a timer double pole isolating switch must be installed somewhere outside the bathroom to enable complete isolation should it be necessary as they won't allow the possibility live terminals during cleaning. Same applies to central heating (pumps/boilers etc) must be independently fused and fully and easily isolatable. (e.g. a 5 amp fuse and switch on the wall nearby)

All light fittings must be supplied with a working earth (switches and ceiling roses) just incase anyone decides to go for brass fittings in the future.

Immersion wiring is no-longer generally allowed within the "hotpress / airing cubard" must be flush fitted on the wall outside as it has caused fires due to rough handling / general wear and tear.

They've really cracked down on the propper earthing of water systems too. It's always been done but apparently is now much more rigorously inspected. lots of bands and earth wires cross connecting pipework to ensure it's fully earthed.

Re the lighting: Northern Europe gets a bit on the dark side

Re: France..

When I was living over there I remember we had fuses in the sockets and light switches in one old house that we had. Perhaps a UK style ring circuit?

Each socket and light switch had a small round disk on the front consealing a fuse carrier.

Is that common over there? or is it just a very old and obselete installation?

I don't know for sure, but probably it's just an obsolete installation. Austrian radial circuits used to have fused receptacles before WWII. There were 2 thin cardboard fuses with metal sleeves on each end, usually 1 or 2 A, 1for line, 1 for neutral, circuit fused 4A. These fuses were already obsolete in the 1950ies, I have a recommendation from 1958 just to bridge them with aluminum foil or anything else as they aren't really needed. In the only receptacle of this type we have I replaced them with 10A ones.

Off topic, but: Does anyone of you know why a vintage British reel-to-reel tape recorder should come with a really thin cord, something like stranded phone cord, and what it would have been fused? 1A?

The basis of wiring regulations in all EU member countries will be firmly founded on technical documents issued by CENELEC. These harmonised documents must be referred to in any national standard and anything that might conflict with them must be withdrawn from that national standard. Harmonised documents will pave the way to a reasonable level playing field under the new approach methodology.
The issue with BS1363 sockets installed in a French house is an interesting one. Should I choose to install say a typical French socket outlet under IEE Regs in the UK, I think that if objection were raised I think that I could successfully argue that the IEE Regs (BS7671 2001) would, by reference to the acceptance of European Norms, permit such a situation. However, I have no doubt that the more than your jobs worth brigade would be out in force.
In any event, I think in due course the UK socket may end up in the same grave as the British pound!

Tex,
Most such vintage equipment sold here came with instructions to the buyer for fitting a plug. They usually stated that if a 13A (BS1363) plug were used that a 2A or 3A fuse be fitted, or that if any other type of plug is used that protection at the panel must be no more than 5A.

The latter case would usually mean use of a BS546 (round-pin) 5A plug. It's an interesting contradiction though, because IEE Regs. permitted 5A BS546 receptacles to be wired on circuits rated at up to 15A.

I remember such instructions from a recent Philips radio/cd/tape combo. Most funny was the part: "If the plug doesn't fit your socket, cut it off and install a new one."
In Austria this would violate the law because only licensed electricians are allowed to work with plugs.

I've seen even more extreme instructions than that in Ireland:

something along the lines of :

"If the plug does not fit the sockets in your home cut it off, remove the fuse from the carrier and dispose of it carefully. It could be very dangerous if it were to be inserted into a compatable socket elsewhere (Risk of electric shock). Then fit an appropriate plug of an approved type."

Is there anywhere to read a bit about French wiring practices, (in english!)? I'm getting involved in a property renovation, and whilst I've no intention of doing the wiring myself it would be nice to know what to expect from the tradesman, and know what to request, etc

Welcome to ECN!

There is some information from Legrand that has been posted here previously:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000103.html

You're not the first to ask:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000057.html

There has been some talk of the Belgian system, which is very similar to the French. There is some information about this in the following thread.
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000078.html

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 12-30-2002).]

Texas-Ranger
"What do you think about using Standard NEMA devices @230V? (Mostly receptacles, could use 277V switches)."

=====

I think it's confusing for people who are not familiar with the intricacies of that particular country's electrical system (people who see an American outlet and think it will be 110 volts so they plug in their radio or computer before checking the voltage and blow it up), but American 1-15 and 5-15 receptacles can work on 220 volts with no problem.

One country I know that uses these is Peru. Voltage is 220 and round-pin European plugs co-exist with flat-pin American plugs.

Years ago, I bought an old 1960s Philips radio from a guy in Peru and it came with an old American-style after-market rubber plug dangling from the cord and the radio was set for 220.

I have a bunch of more modern radios and other devices that are 110/220 volt switchable and come equipped with either SPT-1 AWG-18 cord or .75mm double-insulated cord with parallel-blade plugs.

As far as switches go, I am looking at a standard American wall switch (single pole) made by Leviton. It is rated 10-amp 125 volts/5 amps 250 volts.

I have another one here rated 15 amps/125 volts (but no mention of rating for 250 - although I assume it will be half of the amperage at 125, so 7.5amps/250 volts?) .

Maybe one of these days I'll wire up one of these switches to my 220 volt transformer and see if anything happens...although I think that if I keep within the ratings, they will be fine.

Thx Sven. Yes, it would be confusing, but not that much, as you stated countries like Peru (or Thailand) use this type of equipment with 220V, 50HZ (I was pretty surprised when I got to a flea market held by some guys at the Thai embassy, saw some piece of equipment with a NEMA 1-15 plug and this lady just plugged it into an adaptor. I just expected smoke to rise... Then I saw the amplifier was rated 240V/50HZ.)
I don't think smoke will raise immediately after you hook up US equipment to 220. I have succesfully used a table lamp with Leviton thumbweel switch and metal lamp socket @220V, I rather thought about long-term insulation failure or similar.
Anyway, was just an idea. So far I don't see any chance how to get all the stuff from the US (mail order would be a little expensive), so I'll stick to our own devices. My new room will be retrofitted with 1960ies toggle switches and the typical mix of ungrounded and some Schuko receptacles (very common at that time, especially for rewires).

Hmm.... I wonder exactly how anyone would go about enforcing such a rule? And I'm sure that everyone in Austria abides by this regulation, don't they?

Similar warnings have started appearing in the U.K. in recent years as well, especially since molded-on plugs started to become more common on new appliances.

My half-brother has a small toaster oven that brought in the Philippines. It's a 230V version and came with a standard molded NEMA 1-15 plug and SPT cord. I understand that 1-15 plugs/receptacles are common there on their 220V services.

I'm curious as to wheather the ESB (Ireland's main power company)'s normal domestic single phase supply is similar to the UK, Europe and elsewhere?

12kVA and 16kVA seem to be the standard

Connected as follows: (ESB Supplied)

line > fuse > meter > double pole isolating switch

(Customer Supplied)

Distribution Board
Main switch, main breaker / diazed fuse, RCD & fuses (Diazed/Neozed) or MCBs (the norm these days)

Almost always a Siemens or Hager board of MCBs

Not even law-fixated Germans stick to the plug code. But if you stick to code, the only thing you're allowed is to change light bulbs and replace fuses. Opening a cover exposing live terminals is already a crime. (though impossible to prove, many people rewire their complete house without any license).
OK, Austrian distribution. Big transformer station in each of Vienna's 23 districts, small transformers along the streets. 230/400 line to house>main fuse (PoCo, in this case Wienstrom, located in a box to which only electricians have a key, with overhead service located on the last pole, here the neutral is bonded)>line to house (if main fuse is located on pole or at the front fence)>fuses, to be operated by customer>distribution inside the house> Diazed/neozed fuses ahead of each meter (in case of appartment building)>meter>RCD>panel of fuses (Diazed) or MCBs, fuses typically 6 to 16A, MCB 10 to 16A, although 4A Diazed fuses may still be found. All single phase circuits usually both hot and neutral fused (I guess this comes from the fact that DC distribution was still widely used here until 1965, followed by a 127/220 3ph system w/o neutral, which needed to have both poles protected), so still double-pole breakers are the norm. Common brands are F&G (Made in Austria), Hager, sometimes Siemens. Have also seen brands like Neptun 2000 and similar. F&G is by far the most common.
I think 3/4 of the houses in Vienna are pre-WWI, and many many of them still have much of the original wiring left. (no RCD, 1 or 2 6A circuits for a 100m2 appartment, no ground or maybe some added kitchen receptacles grounded to the next water line, 1mm2 cloth covered wires either in conduit or buried directly in plaster/laying loosely betwetween the joists of plaster and lathe ceilings (which have large amounts of straw nailed to the lathes), tinned copper. Many of these overfused up to 16A (or 20+ if somebody bypassed the fuse with copper wire or like), most of these systems with the worst extensions ever (zip cord in plaster, buried splices, strip connectors in plaster, not even taped, wrong color coding (I actually had a cable with a yellow-green phase, a black neutral and a blue ground, fed by some 0.75 mm2 zip cord, feeding a kitchen receptacle), wires running in perfect circles inside the walls (wanted to relocate a switch because it was way too high up. wires went halfway down from old switch to new desired location, were spliced and went up again to the junction box.), everything). It's a miracle we have such a low electrical fire rate (I don't know exact figures, but I was told the number is much smaller than in the US)

DJK,
The standard single-phase supply for new residential services in the U.K. is now 100A (24kVA). There are still a lot of 60 and 80A services in use though, and a few 40A. Very occasionally, I even come across an old 30A supply.

For the metering/distribution arrangements, you might like to look back at these threads:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000049.html
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000050.html

In this area I'd say that until recently MEM and Wylex were the most common brand of distribution panels. Newer MCB boards include MK, Crabtree, Hager, and GE.

Tex,

In my opinion, this is quite unacceptable. I agree that there are some people who are so stupid/ignorant about electricity that they should never be let near a screwdriver, but to make it illegal to even remove a cover in one's own home is really going too far. And as you say, it's a ridiculous law because it's just about impossible to enforce anyway.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-02-2003).]