Over here in New Zealand, we have just had the latest run of Regulations.
Part of these, is the requirement to have an RCD fitted to the switchboard in all residential places, where Electrical work has taken place.
Some people are not very happy, about this new law, I have been verbally abused, because I have required them to have their old s/board panel, taken out, and a new one installed, because the old one will not allow a DIN rail-mount RCD, to be fitted.
Who makes these laws?.
If you were a home-owner in this situation,
How would you feel about this?.

Do you mean that even if you are just called in to add a receptacle or to replace a light fitting that you are required to fit an RCD to the installation? That sounds very much over the top to me.

Do these rules specify that the RCD has to be incorporated in the distribution panel? Can't you even just add an RCD as a separate unit and have it feed the existing panel?

Paul,
This new law, is going to be a real Headache
for anyone who installs new work in existing installations, over here.
As the Regs read,at the moment, an RCD is required to be fitted to switch-boards, where new work has been installed, to that new circuit only.
When the new Standard comes in, if you show up at a customers house, you are required to protect all of the circuits in the house,
bar the Range and the Water Heater(Leakage
Currents), with an RCD.
This has to be the biggest load of Crap, as far as my line of work goes, as this is the biggest part of my work(existing installations).
And with respect to the replacement of switch-boards, how do you fit a DIN Rail only RCD to a surface bakelite panel?, as all of the terminals are un-shrouded, a real
no-no, over here, especially in Domestic situations.
Total Rubbish!

Over here we can get small plastic enclosures which will accept a DIN-rail RCD, with space for just one or two MCBs, often used in a garage or workshop these days.

I use such an enclosure with a new RCD (and the MCB spaces blanked off) to replace the older voltage-operated ELCBs. That way the main panel doesn't need to be replaced. (Unless there are other reasons for changing it, of course.)

But I agree with you that these new NZ regulations seem ridiculously over-the-top. Requiring an RCD on new installations, or on a major rewire is one thing, but specify that a perfectly serviceable and safe main panel has to be changed just because you've replaced a light switch is crazy.

Once this new rule becomes known to householders, I can see the situation developing where people with no electrical knowledge will be forced to "have a go" themselves simply because they're not going to (or cannot afford to) pay a sparky for what starts out as a simple 10-minute job and turns into a major panel change.

Paul,
I don't think you have to install an RCD for replacing accessories on an existing circuit, only installing new circuits. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Trumpy.)

Trumpy,
I have seen the ammendment to AS/NZS 3000 requiring 30mA RCD protection for lighting & socket circuits in domestic premises.
Does this mean a single RCD may be used to protect all power & light circuits, or do you have to install 2 RCD's to prevent a single fault causing loss all of power & lights.
Over here it is considered bad practice under
current regs to feed the entire installation through a 30mA RCD.
Split load boards are the most popular these days; lights, cooker & water heater on the non RCD protected side and sockets, shower & garage on the 30mA RCD protected side.
Where RCD protection is required on all circuits (TT installations), boards with 2 RCD's are available.

I think the idea of RCD protection for all light & socket circuits is basically good from a safety point of view, but separate RCD's or RCBO's for light & power would be necessary. Otherwise the inconvenience & potential danger of losing light & sockets together could be too much to bear for many consumers.

David,
Only where new wiring is installed does an RCD have to be installed for that particular circuit,that you have installed,it does not apply to replacement of accessories, Thank God!.
A single RCD for a whole installation is considered bad Practice over here, too.
If I was wiring a new house, I would generally allow 2 RCD's for the Lighting circuits and 3 or 4 for the Socket Outlets, depending on the number of circuits.
Paul, that's a cool idea of using a Sub-Panel type arrangement, for the RCD's, I can
almost hear a Huge sigh of relief, from the
Sparkies of NZ, never thought of that angle!.
One thing I don't like about this whole RCD
legislation thing, is if Joe Bloggs, wants a
Shaver point, installed in his Bathroom
(these have an integral RCD any way), you are now required to use a normal socket outlet, and fit an RCD at the s/board!.
I have seen RCD's bypassed at the switch board, because of nuisance tripping, done
courtesy of your friendly Homeowner, one actually killed a 13 y/o boy, who touched a
live washing machine body.

Sorry, have I misunderstood?


I took this to mean that when your new rules come in you will required to RCD protect all circuits no matter what work you're doing there.

No Paul, you have not mis-understood this,
When the New Standard comes in, this will be
the case, 1st of January 2003, will be the day of reckoning for the Electrical Contracting Industry of NZ, there will be two types of Contractor after this date:
A)The contractor, who does not recognise the
EWRB, or the Rules that they set down as law.
These contractors, will be able to put in lower quotes, as they do not even recognise the use of RCD's, let alone the testing of the former.
This type, also does not recognise the Certificate of Compliance System, so they do not bother using them either.
B)The Honest Contractor, He requires that all
of his work is certified, and fills out CoC's for all of of their work.
This person, has all of the required test equipment, even though it may have cost NZ$2000-3000, this is a small price to pay for Peace of Mind and Customers Safety!.
He will also lose out on Existing Wiring work, among other work , because of the Type A Contractor,because he is cheaper,
Who would you have do your work?.

Hmm, retro-active regulations. I don't like the whole sound of the way this is going.

Obviously I'm not saying that RCD protection isn't a good thing, but I start to get worried over regulations forcing people to spend a lot of money to "correct" a "problem" that isn't really there.

I wonder how our American friends would feel if local codes specified that whenever they turned up to do any work at a house, they would be require to fit an AFCI to all bedroom outlets, GFI on kitchen outlets, add a 20A dedicated bathroom receptacle, and so forth to bring the wiring up to the current NEC standards. Suddenly a $100 add-a-light call has become a $1000 project.

As somebody else has said, how would it be if you took your car in to have new brake pads fitted and the mechanic told you that because of new laws he couldn't do it unless you also have ABS brakes, air bags, and a whole load of other stuff fitted at the same time?

In NZ you are talking about these rules being law are you not, not just required by a non-mandatory electrical code?

If you stick to the law, I can see you showing up at a lot of houses, explaining the situation and then being told "Sorry, I can't give you the job then." If all qualified electricians follow this letter of the law, what is going to happen? Either the person will find someone with little knowledge who might well do a dangerous job on the original work, or he'll have a go himself.

I'm all for improving safety, but I can't see that this law will cause anything but trouble and resentment.

Time will tell indeed as to how this affects the industry, i see a lot of the new S/B are coming out with split neutral bars, i have just relocated the M/B and S/B here at home.
they where the old combined type out the back of the house, not good for the reader with the dogs. i added a 32A RCD unit to protect the outlets in the bathroom,laundry and kids bedrooms. was easy to do on a new board, but to have to do it on an old type board ... hmmmm. they normally cluttered up and have tails way to shorts to open fully.. the bill goes up.

The split-load boards have become common in the U.K. in recent years as well.

I've replaced a lot of old boards in this area, usually because people want extra circuits added and the original panel is already overcrowded with no spare ways.

The problem of short tails on the existing cables is a familiar one. It turns a two-hour job into an all-day job.

Paul, like yourself, I do not like the way that this new legislation is heading.
I certainly agree with the protection of Domestic People by RCD's.
One thing that you must realise, is the fact of the new Politically-Correct way, to effect Electrical Safety over here is to just put an RCD on it, A feel-good factor.
This legislation is Law, as of 01-01-2003,
and through the Certificate Of Compliance system, they are only going to punish the people who use this system.
Old Appy, what are your views on this subject,will it affect your quoting,
how do you feel about being under-cut by contractors that would not use RCD's, even though NZS3000:2002, or do not use CoC's
Does it annoy, you as much as what it does me?.

I think there will always be people that want a good job done cheap thats true for all trades not only sparkys, no matter what rules and regulations there are people will take short cuts to get the work at any cost.
I loose no sleep over missing out on that work. There was a time not so long ago people took pride in the work they did, now it seems we just have to get in get it done and on to the next mess to fix.
Progress uh?
CW

[This message has been edited by old Appy (edited 12-02-2002).]

Craig,
Thanks for your reply, on this subject.
But on the same token, why have they not told (or advertised in any of the weeklies
or what have you), the general public about this whole thing???.
We will be the ones who will be screamed at for adding these extra devices, switchboard regardless, I have seen nothing from the authorities, as per usual!.

It also seems that this is the credo in England too. I see too many ads and "Home Depot" style display boards which in my opinion can easily give the layman the impression that using an RCD will prevent every possible electrical problem that may befall you.

I'm fed up with explaining the reality to people who have bought plug-in 30mA RCDs in the belief that they can no longer get an electric shock.

Sure, the device is an execellent safety aid and is to be recommended, but it cannot, and will not, provide complete protection against electrocution.

Paul,
Homeowners are not allowed to install these devices to the s/board over here, this must be done by a qualified Electrician.
But, in effect, what the authorities have done with this new piece of legislation, is to drive all legitimate Homeowners work, under-ground, who is going to get a sparkie
to install an RCD on thier new circuit, when
they can hook it up (minus RCD), for nothing?.
Also Paul, how many homeowners realise, that an RCD is required to be backed up by an MCB?, as a single RCD is a lot cheaper than an RCCBO.

As far as I know in Austria only completely new bathroom circuits have to be RCD protected. New installations have to be protected by a whole-house GFI (or at least it is done this way since the early 1970ies). if I got our sparky right, until 1998 ETV even the US method of having Schuko receptacles w/o ground on a GFI was legal here. The new ETV brought a lot of new regs, for example it requires services to be large enough for heating the entire served area electrically. Conspiration theory: Just in case the russians turn our gas off!
So our new 100 m2 appartment feeder is 6mm2 (I believe) single phase, but the entire house (8 appartments) has just a 60A 3ph service! So our service is still fused with 2 20A Diazed II fuses. The sparky who hooked up the new meter feeder we had installed (3x6 mm2 stranded single wires in 40mm FX, about 5m run) got shocked several times when hooking up the wires to the fuses. Bright guy! Plus he worked from morning till noon for putting the meter into the prepared enclosure and hooking up these 3 wires!
After seeing the bill I was glad I'd done all the other wiring!
I had some nice experiences with the same company some years ago.
Journeyman #1 just twisted some wires together and now tapes them. Journeyman #2 shows up: Hey, you can't do that! It's illegal! Journeyman #1: Why? It was like that when I opened the box!

Well, homeowners can do this here if they so wish (although at least most recognize that this might be beyond their abilities).

But what I had in mind in this case was the RCD-plugs which are now often fitted on extension reels, typically promoted as a wonderful safety device for using power tools outdoors.

My point is that they certainly offer extra protection but are far from eliminating the dangers completely. Shocks to ground might be the most likely, but no RCD is going to help somebody across line and neutral. (And a reminder to our American friends that we're talking about 30mA GFIs here, not 6mA types.)

T-R,
A 1000+ sq. ft. home with only a 6mm 1-ph feeder. That would be practically unthinkable here.

For those of you who can't visualize what size cable we're talking about, 6 sq. mm is only slightly (about 13%) larger than a #10 AWG.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-06-2002).]

Sorry guys, it was 10 mm2. 6mm2 is the current minimum, but the sparky advised us to pull 10 mm2 because there will probably come new requirements. We also sized the conduit large enough to be able to run 3 ph in the future.
The original one (1914) was 4mm2, fused at 20A, no ground, cloth covered wires. At some point spliced to PVC sheathed wires, ground ended at that pint just hanging in mid-air inside the j-box. Now we have a sophisticated upt-to-code feeder and still can't pull more than 20A! (Breakers are 2x 16A dedicated for dishwasher/laundry and 2x 13 for general purpose, i.e lighting and outlets, one 13A for computers, main RCD. So except for the laundry/dishwasher/computer circuits it's the same as the 2 old 10A Diazed fused circuits, only the load distribution is better because on the old system 3/4 of the rooms were on one circuit.)

This whole thing, I can see, is going to get
really silly, over here, just wait for the screaming matches between customers and Electricians(who have to certify thier own work).
This is going to be so unfair!.

Dont let it beat you up Trumpy, The law is the law. We dont make them, just have to follow them.
CW

I always knew there was something I liked about those countries where if the majority of people see a law as unfair they just ignore it (officials included in some cases )

I had the same problem with poll tax when it came so i left.

CW

Craig,
Where were you living when the Poll Tax come in?.
But, how do your work colleagues, feel about this new kick in the guts, regarding RCD's,
this is going to change Electrical Contracting, forever, this will be the make or break for the Sole Trader Electrician, just see that I am wrong.(I hope so)

Me was living in the East-End of London, lived there for 5 years on an OE.
End of the day Trumpy there are to many contractors around anyway all they do is force the prices down get some them in paid employ and We can start charging a half decent fee for the work we do instead of getting work at any cost.
CW

Yes, I agree there Craig.
I recently read an interesting article about
who should pay for Electrical Safety, the COC
system, etc.
It paralleled it with the WoF, you have on your car, if you asked the Mechanic to pay for your WoF, the response would probably be
not to your liking.
People should pay the full cost of thier own safety, after all, it's them that it protects, RCD's, COC's the lot, if they do not like it they should complain to the Regulators, they started it all.
Just as a sideline, Craig, did you also know that you are not allowed to use the green wire(even if sleeved), as an additional switch wire, this I think is the most annoying new rule, especially as far as existing installations are concerned.
Using this wire, is sometimes, the only option, if you can't run a new wire.
I'm puzzled as to the reason for this inclusion.

I think that changed awhile ago we always have run a strap (3 core)i think its a good rule, they seem to be encouraging home owners to bugger with there own wiring. beat me why Have you noticed how a people will mess with there own wiring but not touch there plumbing ?
CW

You mean you used the earth wire as a live wire?

Which part were you in Craig? I ask because I'm originally from north London myself -- Just curious!

Looks like those of us not in NZ need some education on abbreviations again. Trumpy, Appy, could you explain COC and WoF please?

As you mentioned the latter relating to cars, I'd guess this is some sort of inspection. (Warrant of Fitness, maybe?)

Re using a re-identified green wire, are we to assume that in your equivalent of Romex the earth wire is normally fully insulated to the same degree as the phase and neutral? In British NM-type cable the earth is just a bare conductor within the sheath, although the IEE Regs. do now require it to be sleeved at terminations.

COC = Certificate of Compliance is a wriiten guarantee to the owner/occupier that with prescibed electrical work has been completed in accordance with the current rules,regulations and in accordance with the Act law) completed by the electrician and inspector ( if required ) completed in triplicate, one copy to the owner one to the sparky and one to the board.
WOF = yes normally relates to cars but is also relative to electrical work in relation to Caravan's or Connectable Installations they require a electrical Warrant of Fitness every 4 years and can only be done by an Inspector

Yes it was common practice to have a green insulated conductor, sleeved red for a live switch wire on a 2 way circuit and no doubt in house where it is really hard to pull a strap wire (3 core) down a wall it still is.

I lived in Archway, Hackney Wick, Leyton, and Walthamstow while in london and really enjoyed every minute of it, almost stayed there.
cheers Craig

Yep, I know those areas, although I haven't lived there since I was a kid. I was born in Edmonton, I have a brother (half brother actually) who still lives in Winchmore Hill, and my parents were born in Bounds Green and Leytonstone, so it's kind of "old family hunting grounds" around there. Not that I 'd go back now - No way!

Does this apply to all caravan* installations then, whether travel or residential?

*Another term for our U.S. readers to note:
The British term "caravan" can mean either a residential-type mobile home, or a travel trailer. We also have "motorcaravan" which is a motorhome/RV.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-14-2002).]

Paul,
Yes it does apply to all Caravans(normally
called Connectable Installations, over here in the Regs), at most caravan parks, over here, you are not allowed to connect your caravan, unless your EWoF, is current, this is checked when you book in.
An inspector that I know well, hates this time of year,(summer), he gets calls from people stranded at caravan parks, wanting their caravans fixed up and certified, normally at 1800 Hrs, so that they can park up.

Sheesh.... Sounds far too much like Big Brother to me. Do they also ask to see everybody's drivers license and insurance certificate?

What about visiting vehicles, say that have been shipped over from Australia and are not running on NZ plates? Presumably these would not have (and would not be required to have) a WoF certificate?

Paul,
This requirement,is part of the Electricity
regs, no eWoF, no connection, just prevents
unsafe caravans being connected to the supply, is really only to protect the owner of the caravan, nothing else.
In the introduction to NZ Electrical code of
Practice No.1(Caravans), it states:Owners of Connectable Installations should be able to expect the same level of Electrical safety as they would in their own homes.


[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 12-20-2002).]

This whole requirement, comes into effect on the 1st of January 2003.
I hope that the Authorities over here are ready for some verbal abuse, as I will be telling my customers to ring them, if they don't like what I am trying to sell them.

Hmm... Don't want to put anyone on the spot here, but let's say that one day the bureaucrats come out with a really expensive and completely over-the-top new regulation. This new hypothetical regulation would have such a dramatic impact that you would probably lose most of your work.

Would you abide by the new rule, even if it forced you out of business, or would you ignore it?

I have no problems with this new rule, if someone doesnt do it when doing new work then he takes that chance, sooner or later it will bit him on the arse, Look at how the rules have changed when you are building a house, a permit for this resource consent for that, this has all added to the cost over the years.I think the change is a good one i have no problem explaining to people is will help protect them. if they want to complain then so be it. give them the phne number for the board.

Thanks for all of your help, guys.
I now consider this Topic closed.