ECN Forum
Posted By: Scott35 As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/08/04 05:08 PM
Hello all;

Wanted to create a discussion regarding As-Built Plansets, and possibly D/B or even P.E. Plansets, which Members have either been involved directly or indirectly in the creation of these documents.

Would like to discuss:

<OL TYPE=A>

[*] How much detail was put into the As-Built Planset or E-Sheets,

[*] What do you wish you had put into it/them, or not put into it/them,

[*] What - if any - As-Builts have you seen,

[*] What level of - or lack of - information and accuracy were included with these Plans,

[*] What did you like / dislike about any or all EE Plansets you worked from for gathering notes, doing installs, etc.,

[*] How were your experinces with Architects, as far as obtaining Base Plans, specs, etc. for designing and / or As-Builts,

[*] How were your experinces with Utility Service Planners,

[*] How were your experiences with local Building Department/s, and waht would you suggest to improve things for each party,

[*] What were your experiences with Client's Represenatives other than Architects - like Q.C. Inspectors,

[*] What were your experiences with Client preferred Vendors,

[*] Lastly, were you and the Client satisfied
</OL>

Feel free to discuss any and all projects which fall in these categories, or create your own.

Reasons for me posting this are two-fold:
1: Want to get some "Design and Documentation" discussions going, for the benifit of all Members - in all aspects of the trade (Installations and Designs) - this way we can all learn some new stuff from each other as to Designs and References.

2: There's an on-going thread at MHE regarding "What Does A P.E. Do?", and I thought the topic would be something nice to discuss here - only drop the P.E. thing!
(or we could include P.E. and E.I.T. / F.E. discussions too! I am 100% sure no flame wars will break out here!).

Would like to also discuss ideas of preferred design (and install too), types of reference items done for As-Builts, Final Commissioning documents, labeling, and other detail stuff.
Doesn't have to be limited to Power systems only - can cover Low Voltage systems (comm/data, security, audio, etc,), EMS equipment, Motor control equipment, Co-Generation plants, lighting, anything else we would be involved with.

I have posted this topic before, maybe as far back as 2001, so wanted to bring it up for the opinions and comments from newer Members and those whom may have had the opportunity since the last discussion.

Sure hope this topic gets many hits (responses/replies), and is of interest to everyone.

Post away!

Scott

p.s. I need to compile more LAN/WAN discussions for the Computer section - will be done ASAP.

S.E.T.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/13/04 04:52 AM
Any takers??? [Linked Image]

Helloooo, hellooooo, hellooooo - is there anybody in there?... Just nod if you can hear me... Is there anyone Home?
(Slightly stolen from Pink Floyd).

Scott35
Posted By: iwire Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/14/04 12:24 AM
Hi Scott I am a typical American with ADD so you are asking to many questions at once.

You gotta spoon feed us. [Linked Image]

I have to provide rough drawn as builts to the office so our Cad operators can make professional looking ones to turn in.

1)Underground piping is only indicated as far as raceway size and where it comes from and goes to, we make no effort to actually show locations.

2)Overhead runs are also roughly indicated.

3)Circuit numbers are accurately updated, we try hard to keep them as indicated on the original print but some will end up moved for some reason or another.

4)Fire alarm, we do indicate where all devices are located and the rough path of the conductors.

If we tried to provide measurements to underground runs and they prove to be wrong we are in a worse position then just not providing measurements in the first place.

There are some jobs where we have to do as builts "to the extreme" these are usually jobs that have in house maintenance and facility people that know they are going to be stuck with bad as builts unless they start making some noise about the as builts from day one.

I have been way to honest here. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: Bill39 Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/14/04 03:44 PM
Scott,

Our company engineers custom control systems and so there tends to be a lot of changes
from the original prints to the finished set. So it's important for all of these changes to be properly recorded.

Unfortunately, these days you can't do anything without getting a lawyer involved. Ours gave us a talk several years ago about "as-built" drawings. The most important thing he said was to NEVER use the term "as built" at anytime. Always use the term "record drawings".

Evidently in the legal world using the term "as built" means you are telling (guaranteeing) to someone how something was built or wired where as using "record drawing" only means this is how you recorded the construction. A stupid legal technicality but he said millons of dollars
are saved & lost due to this loophole.

What kind of world are we living in???????
Posted By: iwire Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/14/04 09:26 PM
Bill you hit the nail on the head.

The lawyers are the reason for this.

Quote
If we tried to provide measurements to underground runs and they prove to be wrong we are in a worse position then just not providing measurements in the first place.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: nesparky Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/16/04 02:17 PM
Or you can turn in a as built set of drawings for a project, the in a couple of years come back to it for a remodel and discover that the owner no longer has the as builts. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Ron Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/17/04 12:53 AM
In our specs we require the electrician to update anything on the contract drawings that is different than that was shown by us and call them record drawings.
We also have the elec. turn over approved copies of shop drawings/submittals, sequences of operations for equip. along with manufacturers maintenance requirements in an O&M Manual to the owner. Depending on the complexity of the project, there are conduit coordination drawings produced by the Elec as shop drawings and they are turned over as part of shop drawings.
Depending on the complexity of the project, we have the Elec's markups converted by the Elec into CAD, and sometimes we do the conversion for the owner.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/19/04 12:11 AM
Thanks for the replies so far!

I'll add a few comments later.

Scott35
Posted By: Nick Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/29/04 11:56 PM
I'll give this a stab!
A) Plan sets from engineers are increasingly bad these days. There are so many errors and omissions that you can't build the project. I have dealt with many different firms over the years and have come to the conclusion that it's not because there is a lack of knowledge, it's time and money constraints. The electrical is a following discipline just like we are a following trade. The engineer can't finish his design, or in some cases even begin, until everyone else has fed him the information for their stuff. By this time the architect is breathing down his neck to finish so they can't plot and go to bid or plan check or both. This combined with engineering firms applying pressure to reduce overhead gives us the end result of incredibly bad drawings. It is then up to the EC to find all the problems, get them resolved and build the project. So to answer A I think not near enough detail goes into E-sheets.
As for as-builts, I have yet to walk onto a remodel project where IF "as-builts" exist they are anything more than the last set of contract documents issued. I think as-builts should be very detailed. (Yes we are calling them record drawings now to for the exact reasons Bill stated)Under ground conduit locations identified, major overhead racks shown, home run j-boxes and exact locations of equipment. Lately this has been easy for me because the jobs have been requiring a fully coordinated drawing effort submitted for approval. All the layout work is done ahead of time and it's pretty easy to make the slight modifications that occurred on CAD and re label it a record drawing.
I'll try and address the other questions later? [Linked Image]
Posted By: golf junkie Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 04/30/04 02:56 AM
Right on Nick!

Sometimes we get plans that are so bad the stack of addendums is as thick as the spec. book. You would think that they could update the plans before starting the build, but no, that might cost a buck.

No fun to bid and even worse to build.

GJ
Posted By: Nick Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 05/07/04 02:28 AM
Here I go again!
F. Architects are getting better about giving out CAD files. Most are not so proprietary anymore although they do make you sign away your first born before they give you the disk! Other that that, architects have been very good at getting us the info we need.

G. [Linked Image] [Linked Image] They are all the same! Never return phone calls, take forever to get the required info. It doesn't seem to matter which utility, the problem is the same.
Posted By: Nick Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 05/07/04 02:31 AM
Bob,
Do you ever have a communication problem between your field personnel and your CAD operators. It seems to me that CAD people that don't really have electrical experience don't get it right the first or second time!
Posted By: electure Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 05/21/04 11:02 AM
Nick, you're sooooo right.
We get bid plans that seem to come in 2 versions, ones that the EE has been paid by the square foot, and ones that they've been paid by the sheet.
The former seem to be barren of much info at all. They don't have half the equipment shown, and RFIs don't get answered.
The latter also seem to be barren of pertinent info, but will have gobs of "cut & paste" specs written in.
Both make the bid process a guessing game, and result in us excluding this, that and the other thing.
It's almost as if it's intentional! As if the job will go to the bidder that "misses the most things".
Remember, the engineer gets paid up front. Once they have their $$, they want to move on, and support can be nearly non-existent.
[Linked Image]

Our guys keep very accurate as-builts with regards to circuit designations. This is a big benefit to me, as I have to serve as the "pound of cure" when things go wrong, and very often will have never visited the jobsite until there is a problem...S
Posted By: Radar Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 05/23/04 05:54 AM
Hey Scott - the song you quote at the top is one of my all-time favorites. I kinda agree with Bob, maybe we should split out the design & engineering part from the as-builts topic.

Anyway, I currently work for a large public agency in Los Angeles (to remain nameless for now). In our contracts, we generally require the contractor to provide accurate as-builts in CAD format, either AutoCad or Microstation. To make this stick, we usually have a bid item right in the bid forms for as-built drawings, with a provisional bid sum stipulated, and the provisional sum is enough to ensure the drawings get done ($20K to $50K is not unusual, more for bigger contracts). In public works, if a bidder excludes anything or qualifies their bid in any way, they are considered non-responsive and are sumarily rejected.

Even at that, good accurate as-built plans are dificult to get. Plus, even after we do get them, especially for remodel work, we do not then have anyone who integrates the new as-built information into a current master set of drawings for our facilities.

I'll post on D/B later - a sore topic with me, but I'm seeing more & more of it.

Radar
Posted By: Scott35 Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 05/25/04 12:57 AM
Thanks everyone for the replies posted so far. Things are going in the direction I was hoping.

As mentioned by a few, it would be better to separate the topics of "As-Builts", "Design/Builds" and "Engineered Sets" to individual threads, so I will create a few new ones later.

Also as mentioned, the term "Record Drawings" is better suited (and "Legally Safe") in lieu of "As-Builts". I wasn't sure if all Members would understand the term Record Drawing - was sure that a few would but unsure if everyone would.

Note to "RADAR":

I worked as an Engineer / Project Manager / Estimator for an Electrical Contracting firm last year, which had taken on a Public Works project - and this was their first (likely last) Public Works project.
The project was a new Los Angeles Public Library branch.

When I began working for the EC, I was given this job to Manage + put out numerous fires (the job had been going for 18 months already). So many "Fires" had to be dealt with, due to the blundering of a very hard nosed, snobbish and totally unqualified + inept Field Foreman and his lack of Commercial Installations knowledge.
When I was given the job, it was approaching time for Final Commissioning and shooting for TCO.

Anyhow, the contractual requirements for Record Drawings were as you stated - compiled to a CAD format, Plot out hard copy set of velums, archive the CAD drawings to a Disk, submit velums and Disk at turn key time.
This was also verified by:
  • The G.C.'s Project Manager,
  • The Library's Project Manager,
  • The Architect,
  • The Library's Q.C. Inspector,
  • The Project Manual.


When I mentioned this to my "Boss", he figured there was no need for "A Waste Of Time" to produce CAD drawings, and he would have the previously mentioned "Clown Foreman" pencil in As-Built information to "A Few Plan Pages" - then submit this to the Library people.
Not more than 2 weeks later, I get a "Nasty-Gram" E-mail from my "Boss", as he is now pissed off at me for "Not telling Him About The Required CAD As-Builts, And Allowing Clown Foreman To Submit Pencil Edited Blueline Pages Only".

Idiotic things like this occured on a daily bases at this firm, so I left in early October.

You may be familiar with the project I am referring to here! If so, feel free to "Hint" or contact me directly via E-mail at:

setelectric at pacbell dot net

As to the topic at hand:

I have seen some really good + detailed record drawings in my career.

Have also submitted some very detailed record sets, however the majority (75%) of the other sets contained the information described by Nick.

Have seen some simple / basic sets which were nice - and a few sets which were borderline Comedy (sucked!).

Now to get some more input and make a complete conclusion to this thread.

Scott35
Posted By: Radar Re: As-Built Plansets + D/B Plansets - 05/25/04 07:32 PM
Hey Scott - I'm not familiar with the project you reference (I don't work for the City). But I did happen to work as a foreman on the LA Central Library rehab a few years ago. Complete boondoggle - something like 4,000 to 5,000 RFI/RFC's. When we were about 85% complete, we had installed about 550,000 feet of small conduit (1" and smaller), compared to a bid quantity of 250,000 feet, and were over budget to the tune of about 30,000 man-hours on small conduit alone. (I cannot imagine having to make as-built drawings out of that mess)

Back to the topic somewhat - I remember a few years ago working as a Project manager out at the Ontario Airport (owner is City of Los Angeles), sitting in my job trailer making AutoCad record drawings myself, no help from the contractors home office. But at least I know they got done, cause I did 'em.

Scott, I'm curious - on the project you refered to, were as-builts a bid/billing item with money attached, or just a contract requirement?

Where I work now, we frequently issue the bid documents on a CD ROM as well as in hard copy. The drawings are graphics files (tif or jpeg), not cadd files. When the contract is awarded, the contractor is then provided with a set of background cadd files for use in recording their work. Naturally there is more to the record documents than the as-build plans, but that's where they start.

By the way, in our contracts, we use the term "As-Builts". In fact, we generally have a specification section entitled "As-Built Drawings and Current Status Docmnents". CSI # is 01720 (for anyone who cares). I never see the term "Record Drawings" around here.

Radar
© ECN Electrical Forums