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Posted By: electure FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 12:16 AM
Like a Model T Ford, they come in basic black.

[Linked Image]


This one had a 100 Amp breaker ahead of it, which actually DID trip, after both busses and the interior's mounting plate burnt through completely.

[Linked Image]

Here's the parts The blob at the bottom used to be the buss material.

[Linked Image]


I had heard of FPE problems which were described just as this (and fires starting as a result), but this is the first time I actually saw one first hand myself.

How do you like it??
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 12:56 AM
FPE = Faulty Protection Equiptment
Fire Prone Equiptment

This looks similar ot an FPE 150A combo panel I pulled out of a house in Fullerton. Just cut a hole in the back behind where the main was with an acetilyne torch and it will look the same.

Scott, do you know what the original fault was that lead to this? Scary stuff! [Linked Image]
Posted By: Celtic Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 01:59 AM
I had 1 pole of a (40 year old) 2-pole FPE 50A main trip...what makes this odd is that the FPE feed to a (2 year old) Square D HOM 50A CB that was being used to temp. out a 200A panel.

Why didn't the Square D trip first???
Posted By: NORCAL Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 04:00 AM
Federal Pacific, "Welding duty circuit breakers".
Posted By: Rewired Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 04:47 AM
WOW Thats the first time I have ever seen that happen!

Roughly how old is ER WAS that panel if I may ask? 30 years?? maybe a bit older? Just curious

A.D

[This message has been edited by Rewired (edited 07-06-2006).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 07:15 AM
That's just rediculous!.
Posted By: e57 Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 07:53 AM
This is a fault that blew OPEN! The ones we don't see are the ones that stay CLOSED, and use the rest of the building as a fuse. The Fire Dept gets those calls.....

Follow the GEC and see if there was any other hot stuff going on.... Or was this just phase to phase? (With a fast ground hit, as the molten metal dripped)

I would consider everything up stream of this damaged, especially the breaker that DID trip.
Posted By: electure Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/06/06 10:41 AM
I haven't any idea what caused this to happen in the first place.
This was in an apartment that was (yes, Adam) about 30 yrs old. The customer had complained to management of "flickering lights" for about a week previously. (And of course, THIS is what it took before they called an electrician.)
The aluminum feeder's terminations were still sound, the damage was restricted to what is shown.
I believe that this started as a line to line problem, although I can't guess what caused the arc to start in the first place.

Any ideas?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/07/06 12:11 AM
For those of you who participate in the Fine Woodworking "Breaktime" forum... amazingly enough, someone there just ran into the same thing.

It must be time for these things to wear out...
Posted By: mxslick Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/07/06 06:14 AM
electure:

I think you'll find the cause of this failure to be the way this particular panel's bus bars are assembled. This one is the style where the breaker's tabs fit into the punched plate, which is mounted to the bus with an 8-32 screw and standoff. (Look closely at the bus to the right of the breakers.)

On the world-famous FPE "horror story" website they talk in detail about this bus style. (I'll find the link and edit it in.)

Here's a link:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

I'm trying to find the link for a document that shows in detail the different styles of bus construction...

edit 2: Here's the link to a detailed pic of bus types, scroll down to item 5:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpestlouis.htm
I believe that the screw corroded/oxidized over the years and the high current of the feeder passing thru started an arc which grew to line-to line. (Pretty easy in these crappy panels as clearances are nil anyway.)

Was there a main breaker here? (The 100 amp one you refer to?) Or were there other breakers over this damaged part of the bus? Do you have pics of the damaged breakers, if any?

Inquiring minds want to know... [Linked Image]

edited to add link and bold text items..

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 07-07-2006).

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 07-07-2006).]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 07-07-2006).]
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/08/06 12:56 AM
This looks like my work everyday. Most customers want the upgrade from this -- especially after I inform them to do a search for FPE on the internet. Selling an upgrade from a Federal to a Square D, or Murray, or whatever, is a piece of cake when electrical equipment marked "FPE" is used. Would you want one in your house?

[This message has been edited by ShockMe77 (edited 07-07-2006).]
Posted By: circuit man Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/08/06 02:22 AM
i have an old FPE panel in my house which is over 100 yrs old,never had a problem with them tripping. there the brown case with a black handle. thanks mxslick for that link very informative + scary!i know about them not tripping because i accidentally cut into one on a 20 amp circuit in a sub panel fed by a 100 amp sguare D , it tripped first. not to mention leaving to check other things. happened to be in the hardware store today so i thought i'd see what they had,the replacements are made by a company called UBI incorporated.a division of contienetal electric.these do trip on a short but don't know about an overload. the reason i say this is i had one on a sewage pump station that smeone cut the plug off of the float cord & put on a male plug on the end then plugged it in.kinda hard to figure what was up until i got my ohmmeter out, then all was clear. asked the homeowner how long had it been this way & he said as long as he could rember.the float was supposed to turn a warning light on to let them no the pump was not running, it did. just not a light!anyway after i sraightned this out all worked well. considering i was standing around a couple of do it yourselfers that had a few too many beers to drink & didn't have a clue as to how close they had come from getting killed! now that's scary!
Posted By: Scott35 Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/08/06 06:03 AM
This kind of looks like the results from one of the following scenarios:

<OL TYPE=A>

[*] The Barbecued item was a 2 pole Breaker, which had the Panelboard's Feeders brought into it, and the Feeders were loose in the lugs,


[*] BBQ'd device is 2 Pole C/B, which had loose terminations on the Bus slots,


[*] BBQ'd device is a lug assembly, which mounts to the Bus Kit, which had loose terminations to the Bus - or loose Feeder terminations on the lugs,


[*] Being that the Feeders are Aluminum, maybe someone came along in the past few Years and "messed around" with the terminations - maybe going as far as terminations which had oxidation and/or not using any Anti-Oxidation compound.
</OL>

Those little Federal Pacific "Panel-ettes" can become extremely dangerous after being opened a few times (namely, by unexperienced personnel).
If they are "Untouched", the Breakers remain tightly seated inside, and there is very little heat "generated at the Panelboard" [Linked Image].

After someone with little to no knowledge of the FPE line (or what occurs when Bus Terminations are left loose) gets in these Panels, the trouble starts.

First common problem is the dead front cover doesn't fit back on properly, so instead of correcting the problem where it exists (the enclosure is tweeked, due to the installation of a new circuit), the cover gets bashed back on - ultimately resulting in damaging a Breaker, loosening them from the "Stab-LoK" Bus, or both.

Second, someone installs an incorrect style FPE breaker on the Bus, which ends up being loose on the Bus - transferring built up heat to the Bus and all Breakers in it's proximity.

I am not saying the FPE "Stab-Lok" line is all that great; only that these are kind of like K&T Wiring:
When some unexperienced person messes with them, trouble usually starts immediately afterwards.

Have dealt with "a few" panelboards in my career, and have also seen "a few" unexperienced persons work on panelboards, which - in a wierd way - assisted in my overall experiences, understandings and knowledge.

This is why I prefer to excel in Broom Pushing!!! [Linked Image]

Scott35
Posted By: electure Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/08/06 11:06 PM
This was a main lug panel, both the ungrounded conductors are taped off in the first picture. The Main, in with the metering about 60' away, was also an FPE.
Scott, I'd have to say scenario "C"
I don't think this panel was opened since it was installed originally.

Here's the parts as they laid out. You can see the 8-32 screws that you mention, mxslick.

[Linked Image]

Kind of like a sick jigsaw puzzle.
Posted By: Luketrician Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/10/06 05:26 AM
I love the smell of burnt au/cu and ozone! [Linked Image] I remeber back when I started my apprenticeship, when I turned a pair of dykes into strippers. The part of the building I was in was completely dark, and I was gutting wires from an old 4/4 JB. A clip here, snip there, then POW! Lesson learned, always check for voltage, no matter how dark it is!
Posted By: mxslick Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/16/06 03:32 AM
Thanks for the further details, electure! I am very surprised that the FPE 100amp main DID trip. Now my question is would it trip again if necessary or has it failed like the ones detailed in the links I posted?

I have personally had two of these panels explode in my presence, one when I was removing the dead front to add a breaker and the second when I went to reset a tripped (amazing, eh?) breaker. Hate these panels with a passion.

circuit man, hope you get to upgrade that panel soon. [Linked Image] Just because it's working now doesn't mean it will continue to do so in the future.

But I do believe in what one EC told me a long time ago, that if you're not experiencing problems with the panel now, best to leave it undisturbed until you're ready to change it. (Meaning leave the dead front on and don't try to pull any breakers out.) But it would be a good idea to try each breaker manually to ensure it will shut off power, to be sure the contacts aren't welded closed.

They also have links on the site for it's sister troublemaker, Zinsco...
Posted By: Rewired Re: FPE - It's True What They Say - 07/17/06 05:30 AM
That still blows my mind...
I know from looking in my panel that the buss and the punched plate the breakers sit in is all one piece.. there is no lil' 8-32 screw bolting the plate to the buss.. Come to think of it I have never seen any screws bolting the punched plate to the buss in any FPE panel I have been into or installed... I DO have an old one that I think dates back to the 50's or so I am going to look at and see what it looks like just for " ha-has"..
as for thenm not tripping... Must be a difference between the newer stuff and the old, and the stuff made for Canada vs the stuff that is made in the USA..
Albeit the ones here in Canada are
S... L... O... W to trip I have yet to see one that hasn't I have even had the 2-pole 20 that used to protect my old 2-ton Lennox A/C trip every time there was a momentary power interruption and the compressor tried to re-start while there was excessive head pressure at the compressor.. ( Really fellas, it DID trip, and more than once too!!! I am not on cheap drugs or anything!!!!).. There are many many instances where I can say they did their job, BUT I WILL say I did see where a neighbour plugged in 25 amps worth of Christmas lighting into a 20 A receptacle and circuit, protected AND controlled by a " NA-20" FPE breaker.. Ya know the "wide" ones that are also stamped "SWD" for switching duty.... Well, it took about 4 hours for the bugger to trip, but without a word of a lie, nothing seemed excessively warm to the touch, and I repeated the " test" the next night with the same results, nothing seemed to get much hotter than " normal", well "normal" to the touch anyway
Also Tried running 30A through 1/2 of a wide 2-pole 20 A FPE breaker once.... For "ha-has" yet again...Took 8 mins to trip,. and less after each reset that as the innards of the breaker were still warm..
BUT believe it or not the bugger tripped repeatedly!!

Sorry, I know there are MANY out there that think FPE are crap, and well, you probably are right, I just don't want you all to think I am off my rocker for what I have stated above, but I just haven't seen the problems I have heard so much about... Trust me though when I do I will fess up that I saw an FPE go bad and I will try and get pix to boot!!

A.D
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