from Jim M

suppose those pendants were gfi protected i cant see a major issue with this it does look good and besides there is no shower head as i can see ..... not like water is going to be a major issue..??:

Alan I agree with you to some extent.

But the installation in the picture violates NEC rules.

In the US it seems that we must protect people from their own stupid actions, such as trying to change a lamp on a live fixture while taking a bath.

Personally I think this attitude circumvents natural selection and will result in the dumbing down of the general population.

The problem with a a magazine article like this is that the homeowners ask the electrician to replicate the installation and the electrician has to break the news to the homeowner.


Interestingly wall sconces are allowed in the zone by the NEC.

I'm going to try that one on the inspector next time!!

In the UK we have low voltage fittings for this purpose - are similar items not available for this use in the US??

I can just see it.

Stand up, bump head on light fitting, break bulb, get zapped through to bath water...

If you think about it, that's when a bad bulb is most likely to get replaced. It doesn't need doing when nobody is bathing.

The roof can't be fixed when it's raining, and it doesn't need fixing when it's not raining. Right?

[This message has been edited by Larry Fine (edited 04-15-2006).]

680.43B seems to suggest that it IS possible to mount lights over this tub....but not these particular lights!

Alan, you're not far off.... apart from requirng GFI protection, the fixtures are required to be enclosed, and suitable for a damp location.

I will admit, They do look nice, but that is it.. Personally, with THAT fixture I know I would ding my head off of them, aside from other safety and code concerns.

A.D

So why not allow low voltage lighting near a bathtub? If a new rule to allow this were like a combination of 680.33(A) and Article 411, could that possibly be safe? Maybe special luminaires designed for, and listed for, use near bathing water like that?

PLEASE understand that what kills folks is current...not voltage.
The available current on a circuit is defined by the impedance of the system and the rated current of the power source; not by the working voltage or the little number stamped on the breaker.
If the current available from the low-voltage transformer feeding the lights exceeds a rather small value, get ready to call the undertaker.
It's possible to get a fatal current out of a transformer with a rated 12V output quite easily, especially since it only takes several milliamperes to result in a fatality by electrocution...and that doesn't even allow for the quite real possibility of someone being startled and cracking their skull while falling in the tub.

Hey, ghost.
Good point, but I think that 120 volts is much more likely (10 X) to push 100 milliamps through the resistance of the human body than 12 volts is.
Being immersed in water obviously reduces body resistance greatly, and I wonder if it would be low enough to cause severe injury or worse.
I once got hit by 24 VDC and it stung. I imagine if I was drenched, it would have been far worse.

For the 12V bulbs, if you use a transformer that is centertapped with tap to ground, such that you only have 6V from ground, that might cut the shock hazard enough in such a wet environment (someone standing in ankle deep water trying to change a bulb).

Or some manufacturer will need to develop a fiber optic method such that the bulb itself is far away from the tub, and the pendants are all non-conductive except for grounded metal parts...

I have been looking at 410 and 411 and I am not certain that the NEC prohibits low volt fixtures in the bathtub zone.

Yes for certain 410.4(D) says:


But now look at 410.2


Than 411.1


and finally 411.4


I don't see tubs in that list.

I do not think 410.4(D) applies to low voltage lighting systems.

What do you all think?

Bob

Bob
Take a look at 411.4(B), that may preclude the use of 30v or less around tubs.

Note that the use of low voltage lighting with a transformer defeats the GFCI function. A GFCI only sees current escaping to ground on the primary, not the secondary. Remember, the GFCI does not sense current on the ground lead, only a mismatch on the line and neutral leads.

I would think that there is fiber-optic or LED lighting available that may be suitable.
I certainly wouldn't approve installing a shock or shatter hazard, Darwin-Award-nominations not withstanding!!!
energy7

I'm sure that somebody makes a fiber-optic unit to do this in a residence. I know that there are commercial units. It'd be a LOT cheaper than the lawsuit when some idiot gets hurt (or worse).

On the subject, but not related to your pic.
Custom home, huge master bath, 22' cupola type thing with windows, owner/builder & decorator want a chandelier installed. Bottom of fixture will be 16' above high water. I said "NO".

Decorator came up with having the 'bottom' of the cupola thing enclosed with plexiglass, which will technically 'enclose' the fixture. Relamp would be accomplished thru one of the windows, I guess.

Any comments gentlemen??????

John

John how can you say no if its 8 ft or more vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold?

Bob

John I guess I should ask.

Where you the inspector or the EC on that job?

Bob:
I had/have my EC hat on for that one. I neglected to type in that they have a fixture winch originally, that's why I said 'NO'. I lost my train of thought 'cause Joanie called me for supper.

John

I have nad a number of "design pros" insist upon lights directly above tubs and pools... untill I ask them just how would they change a bulb? Where would the ladder go?

Amazingly enough, they see the point, and find another solution.

As for low voltage..... you're right, the NEC is a bit confused on the issue. I will try to put this issue in context.

Before there were GFI's, there was a major move started toward using low voltage for risk-prone aplications. Now, this wasn't just any "low voltage," as if you've ever watched someone arc-weld, you're seeing low voltage at work! No, the low voltage in these applications came from transformers that limited the amount of current available- low power, as well as low voltage.

Examples of where this is still used are sprinkler controls, outdoor garden lights, and your telephone. Some of you may have also seen homes where the light switches controlled relays concealed in the ceiling; same idea.

The advent of the GFI.... which was much contested, not least of all by the low voltage crowd... pulled the rug out from the low voltage industry.