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Posted By: Admin Transformer Room - 03/27/06 11:49 PM
Quote
Friday I went about 60 miles North of here to look at pricing a remodel. The building was vacant but the GC told me the entry code over the phone. He said " There's a 1200 amp service existing" When I got there I couldn't see a service drop. When I got inside this smelly old place the power was on.

I went to the basement in search of panels. Sure enough I found the 1200 amp switch, nothing out the top nothing out the bottom, must feed from behind. Immediatly to the left was an unlocked door. I opened said door and saw nothing but dark, but I heard a familiar 60hz hum. Something told me not to stick my hand in fumbling for a light switch. I went to the truck for a
flashlight.

- Rabbit
[Linked Image]
Posted By: feather Re: Transformer Room - 03/28/06 01:27 AM
that really ticks me off no sign or lock let alone interlocked. And they say industrial locations are bad.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 03/28/06 01:42 AM
Wow!! Talk about a nightmare. I had a friend whose dad lost his arm in a room eerily like this one, exposed buss lugs, a slip while entering (from above, no door) and complete loss of his right arm at the armpit.

The middle and far tubs show signs of oil leakage,too. Older tubs, probably PCB to boot. [Linked Image]

The unlocked door makes this a criminal act. Was the door to the electrical room locked? But even so, this should be accessable by the POCO only!!

What was the primary voltage?
Posted By: napervillesoundtech Re: Transformer Room - 03/28/06 04:44 AM
It's good you know what you're dealing with. That ladder back there scares me a little. This is not a place for some unqualified person to be ''just poking around''
Posted By: iwire Re: Transformer Room - 03/28/06 10:06 AM
I would be very surprised if this section of the building is not deeded to the electric supply company and it should have power company locks on it.

This is not that unusual around here however I have never found one of these power company vaults left unlocked.

You might want to give the POCO a call about this situation.
Posted By: sandro2 Re: Transformer Room - 03/28/06 03:25 PM
It's a good thing that humming sound is stuck in your memory.
Posted By: NORCAL Re: Transformer Room - 03/29/06 02:49 AM
Good reason to carry a flashlight in a unfamiliar building.
Posted By: Gus99 Re: Transformer Room - 03/29/06 10:17 PM
What are you complaining about? The HV side is insulated. Surley that LV secondary is harmless.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Transformer Room - 03/29/06 11:52 PM
Gus,
Quote
What are you complaining about? The HV side is insulated. Surley that LV secondary is harmless.
Personally, I don't think I'd like to trip and fall onto one (or across two [Linked Image] ) of those bare termination lugs.
Simple Ohms Law tells me that the chances of getting off it unscathed would be pretty remote.
Regardless of where these transformers are situated, I reckon there should be shrouds over them, from a Health and Safety perspective. [Linked Image]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 12:19 AM
I really must object to the rounded profiles that the tops of these transformers have. Where else am I supposed to set my tools, papers, and coffer mug?
:-)
Posted By: Rabbit Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 12:36 AM
Hey Bill I sent some follow-up pics of this. Did you receive?
Posted By: iwire Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 12:44 AM
Quote
Regardless of where these transformers are situated, I reckon there should be shrouds over them, from a Health and Safety perspective.

I have never seen such a shroud on an installation like this.

The generally policy is that only authorized, safety trained personal are allowed in the room.

Usually there is no need to go in the anyway as all that will be in there are the transformers and some lights.

I built one of these rooms as a subcontractor to the power company.

Once it was powered up it was off limits to me.
Posted By: Admin Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 01:17 AM
Quote
In the first photo you can see the cut-outs. Note the primary lines coming in through the ceiling.
[Linked Image]
Quote
The next photo shows the primary drop leaving the pole. Look closely. I would have loved to get on the roof but I could'nt.
[Linked Image]
Quote
Note the three phase primary running smack dab over the building.
[Linked Image]
Quote
All the primary apeared to be insulated but I wouldn't bet my my life on it. There was a keyless fixture above the pigs but I wasn't climbing on them to change it.

- Rabbit

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 03-29-2006).]
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 02:54 AM
And the horror show continues... this thing gives me the creeps every time I see it..and now, it appears that the cutouts are right by the door!!

So changing a fuse or closing in or opening those cutouts effectively forces you to be isolated inside the room?? And the close spacing makes a phase-to-phase flashover a distinct possibility, especially since they're not outdoors in open air.

Speaking of which, is there any ventilation to the outside of the building? I don't see any vents of any kind (and if there were the room wouldn't have been in total darkness when you arrived.)

Rabbit, please tell me I'm wrong......this whole thing has some seriously unsafe design issues!!

edited to add:

I also wonder if the POCO is aware of this situation? And if they don't care, heads should roll!!!

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 03-29-2006).]
Posted By: mamills Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 04:30 AM
mxslick (or anyone else): You mentioned venting of this room,or the lack thereof. Do transformers such as these (especially if they are filled with PCB fluid) emit noxious fumes of some sort, and if so, does it increase as the load on the transformer increases?

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 04:56 AM
Mike:

No, they generally don't emit fumes. The ventilation requirements as called out in Art. 450 of the NEC deal primarily with heat dissipation from operation and ventilation of smoke and heat from a fire within the vault.

I do recall reading that all oil filled transformers, when there is internal arcing, will build up hydrogen and acetyline (sp?) gasses which could explode/ignite.

That same book also explained why oil/liquid filled transformers often fail after an extended outage. It seems that the heat and core/winding vibrations keep any contaminants (usually water and gasses) of the cooling/insulating fluid in suspension. After an extended cool-down, the contaminates and trapped gasses in the fluid form bubbles on the windings and internal conductors. This severely reduces the insulating values of the fluid, and when re-energized it results in arcing and failure. Many distribution and a few large substation transformers have failed, often violently, from this situation.

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 03-30-2006).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 07:17 AM
Bob,
Our Poco area covers in relation to your area just a smidgen of jurisdiction.
The majority of it is underground reticulated and it would not be accessible to people that did not have the key to open up a transformer.
11 or 33kV topside, they are out in the open to ensure good ventilation.
Posted By: Rabbit Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 01:44 PM
Wow! One of my posts went flaming! A first for me. The drawings I received showed a new service riser to refeed the existing 1200.

Someone had already hung a CT cabinet and core drilled the exterior wall, presumably the owner of the green ladder.

The utility had set a new pole complete with 3 spanking new trannies. The other contractor was halted and this is now to be included in my cost. This design will still leave unfused conductors inside the building for about 25 feet. Low voltage at least.

So it is in the repair stage. I may or may not pursue this work. Those primaries evidently come down inside an interior wall as this is in the basement.

I've informed the GC to make SURE the service is killed from the pole before the demolition (sledge hammers and sawzalls) contractor begins.

[This message has been edited by Rabbit (edited 03-30-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Rabbit (edited 03-30-2006).]
Posted By: mamills Re: Transformer Room - 03/30/06 02:26 PM
mxslick: Thanks for the reply. I know that transformers (all transformers?) produce heat in some manner, which, I assume, increases proportionally with the load imposed on it. I guess I didn't realize that these big boys produced that much heat.

Mike (mamills)

Glad to hear that all this is being relocated to the OUTSIDE of the building! The picture reminds me of one posted some time ago where a single transformer was sitting on a wood pallet in the bottom of a concrete pit and covered with an old piece of plywood [Linked Image].

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 03-30-2006).]
Posted By: Rewired Re: Transformer Room - 03/31/06 12:47 AM
That just looks plain outright scary to me.. I would not wanna be anywhere near that room let alone inside of it, especially if something were about to fail... I understand that is a room the PoCo and ONLY the PoCo should have access to...
My old highschool had a room like that.. and we did have a failure overnight of one of the 6 cans in that room ( think there was 3 for the 600V supply and 3 for the 120 / 208V... Primary was all 13.8 K.V...

A.D
Posted By: electure Re: Transformer Room - 04/06/06 11:48 AM
From Scameron81

Quote
You can hear this thing humming as soon as you open the hatch to get
into
the basement. This is a Boarding school that we do a lot of work for.
Every building has one of these transformers below it. There is a
single
50A 4160 feed that runs in a 2" rigid conduit throughout the tunnel
network.
It was installed back in the fifties. This is a 4160/120-208. The
door
when you open it swings within about 2' of the open windings. If you
look
carefully you see the high water mark on the wall just above that 2"
conduit. Its not exactly my favorite place to work in the world.


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Transformer Room - 04/06/06 12:59 PM
Compare this:
Know when to stay away
Almost the same building by the looks of things.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 04/10/06 03:34 AM
Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse... open coils in a tiny room prone to flooding.

IIRC, the original transformers in the Avalon Theater on Catalina Island (See the "Avalon" threads in the Electrical Nostalgia Forum) were set up exactly like this, in a concrete room just to the rear of the main switchgear. They now have submersible rated tubs installed.

I wouldn't go near that thing unless the feeder was off and grounded out.

Wouldn't installing a transformer out of its can (if it even had one to begin with) void the warranty? Since I would presume the design of the enclosure ensures proper airflow over the coils.
Posted By: mamills Re: Transformer Room - 04/10/06 03:50 PM
It is unusual (for me, anyway). I've never seen a completely naked transformer, sitting out in the open like that.

I'm interested in the primary cutouts. Are they similar to the ones shown earlier in this thread? Also, what kind of conduit is used for the line-side conductors to the fuses? It almost looks like PVC pipe with holes drilled in it for the wires.

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: Gus99 Re: Transformer Room - 04/11/06 07:45 PM
"50A 4160 feed that runs in a 2" rigid conduit throughout the tunnel
network."


That's only 200kva in all. Seems a little light for a campus style school?
Posted By: scameron81 Re: Transformer Room - 04/12/06 01:36 AM
It is a little light. The loads aren't balanced very well either. The worst part is there is only the one set of cutouts (with the exception of the transformers) to the whole system. There is no way to isolate sections of the line. It is very difficult to troubleshoot outages.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 08/16/06 06:12 AM
First off, bump. [Linked Image]

Now imagine something like THIS happening in any of these rooms!!
Posted By: Luketrician Re: Transformer Room - 08/16/06 07:38 AM
"I really must object to the rounded profiles that the tops of these transformers have. Where else am I supposed to set my tools, papers, and coffer mug?"

I have to agree with Reno' on this, thats the only problem I see with it all. Those blasted rounded tops! [Linked Image]
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 08/17/06 01:20 AM
On the other hand, those tubs make great coffee and lunch warmers!! [Linked Image]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Transformer Room - 08/18/06 01:20 AM
And on a good day, go to the school and make toast on the open coils??

I discovered a room like this in the bowels of a real old 3 story retail bldg. Doing a survey/report on conditions within the bldg, as the tenant of 50 years was packing up.

Old equipment, old branch panels, old gear. Found an open room behind the gear....no lock, a sign that faded out years back, and YES, the 60Hz hummmmmm.

4160 primary, 120/208 sec, similar to Rabbit's. Funny part was.....finding one of the "old timers" from the POCO who had a clue where the street side (UG) cutouts were. The debates as to who owns the pots lasted at least 4 weeks. Finally got the disconnect about 6 weeks later.

John
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Transformer Room - 08/18/06 01:36 AM
Rabbit, Is this some kind of disconnect in the same room at the Xfmrs??? [Linked Image]

[Linked Image from img.photobucket.com]
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Transformer Room - 08/18/06 01:54 AM
I found an unlocked door to a poco vault at a local middle school once and looked inside to find a similar situation as the original photo in this thread. Scary. I called the trouble line for the poco asap, and the people on the other end were cross and rude about it over the phone. They kept acting like I unlocked the door and its condition was my fault. I stayed on site until the trouble truck showed up. I don't know about you guys but I remember middle school as the supreme jackass exposure period of my life. Kids in my middle school would have tried to throw other kids in the room and hold the door closed.
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Transformer Room - 08/18/06 02:08 AM
Randy, I think you're right... [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Ian A.
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Transformer Room - 08/18/06 07:16 PM
Quote
I don't know about you guys but I remember middle school as the supreme jackass exposure period of my life. Kids in my middle school would have tried to throw other kids in the room and hold the door closed.

That's true of every junior high/ middle school. Vaults at such schools should have 2 locks on the door for extra security against idiot pranster kids I would think. Kids that age usually are not capable of planning pranks that are not dangerous.

Back in college, a classmate had somehow a set of master keys to transformer vaults and elevator control rooms and such. Both of us were electrical engineers, and wise enough to just look at (and not touch!) the transformers and high voltage switch gear in those places. Though I don't think either of us were aware of arc blast hazards, we still kept our distance (several feet) to avoid high voltage. College dorm buildings had transformer vaults. Both of us kept quiet about the keys he had.
Posted By: napervillesoundtech Re: Transformer Room - 08/18/06 11:01 PM
School pranks? Some go well, and others don't. See the link below. The sad thing is the students involved in this were part of the "top of their class" and were supposed to be "shining examples" for other students to follow. Follow where? The detention center or the emergency room?
http://www.naperville.il.us/dynamic_content.aspx?id=2017
Posted By: mamills Re: Transformer Room - 08/19/06 02:39 PM
...or the embalming room at the local funeral home?

Pity, these kids could be so bright at one moment and so incredibly stupid the next.

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: PEdoubleNIZZLE Re: Transformer Room - 08/31/06 02:10 PM
Silly Bump

(sarcasm)
What's wrong with a little bit of 'lectric? A little bit of 'lectric never hurt anyone. It's good fer ya, like lead or radium!
(/sarcasm)

(cliche)
I'm a man! I work with 480V LIVE!!!!!
(/cliche)
Posted By: mamills Re: Transformer Room - 08/31/06 06:54 PM
My junior high school (in Denver) was so bad that the kids would quite literally TIE other kids to the sides of those transformers - there were two such rooms at my school (no waiting [Linked Image]). The very thought of trying to escape from a situation like that with those open bushings only about a foot or so from your head was terrifying [Linked Image].

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: napervillesoundtech Re: Transformer Room - 08/31/06 11:20 PM
The high school I went to was pretty interesting. They were in a room that was never locked. Kids used to go down there and make out and stuff, and the student activities department stored all kinds of junk in the room. It was the only part of the basement that had a really, really reliable sump pump, so people always put stuff there to ensure that it stayed dry. I can count on one hand the number of people who actually knew what these were, as well as the dangers associated with them.
Posted By: classicsat Re: Transformer Room - 09/02/06 02:35 AM
I was invited to hang out in the janitor's lounge a bit in high schoo. In a little hallway to the room I am sure the transformer room was adjacent to it. I nkow my elementary school had a big green humming box out back, well sealed though.
Posted By: Rewired Re: Transformer Room - 09/02/06 04:11 PM
Ahh how time flies! I remember back in my later elementary school days the Janitor used to get me to help him with small electrical jobs in and around the building like passing him up lamps and running around to turn on and off the breakers and timers feeding lighting circuits... Also took the time to show me how some of the mechanicals of the school and how they worked such as some of the big fans, underfloor H/W heat, incinerator and the mammoth marine style boiler that shook the building every time it fired up.. Even showed me the innards of it when it was opened for inspection and cleaning...

A.D
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 09/03/06 04:32 AM
Quote
My junior high school (in Denver) was so bad that the kids would quite literally TIE other kids to the sides of those transformers - there were two such rooms at my school (no waiting ). The very thought of trying to escape from a situation like that with those open bushings only about a foot or so from your head was terrifying .

Mike (mamills)


Stories like that really make me about to lose my breakfast. Granted, most kids are fundamentally ignorant of just how dangerous those humming pots really are, but the school should have been more viligant in keeping the bloody doors locked!!

My High School had an old style oil switch located outside the metal/auto shops. It controlled the primary of the indoor dry transformer serving the entire east side of the campus. Despite being in a fenced, (but close-fitting) chain link cage, it had failed violently TWICE when pranksters opened it under load. (It did have a sign posted , "DO NOT OPEN UNDER LOAD", but who in H.S. other than oh, me, knew what that meant?) The handle could be reached through the gap in the fence and it wasn't locked in the on position.

The H.S. finally enclosed it fully behind a cinder-block "bunker."
Posted By: Av-guy Re: Transformer Room - 09/03/06 06:30 AM
Quote
My High School had an old style oil switch located outside the metal/auto shops. It controlled the primary of the indoor dry transformer serving the entire east side of the campus. Despite being in a fenced, (but close-fitting) chain link cage, it had failed violently TWICE when pranksters opened it under load. (It did have a sign posted , "DO NOT OPEN UNDER LOAD", but who in H.S. other than oh, me, knew what that meant?) The handle could be reached through the gap in the fence and it wasn't locked in the on position.

eew [Linked Image], did the perp survive the blast to get a hot seat in front of principal, PoCo reps/lineman and maintenace foreman?



[This message has been edited by Av-guy (edited 09-03-2006).]
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Transformer Room - 09/03/06 12:16 PM
It's is quite surprising how casual some schools seem to be regarding electrical safetly within the school area's.

Regardless of the LV voltage with a high fault level and explosion danger like in these switch rooms there is HV as well which school kids have no idea off regarding MAD's.

I'm supprised that no one got killed in those pranks where they got tied to within a foot from bare bushings on those Pots.

The aluminium ladder in a switchroom like this is very dangerous, even for skilled staff, should be wood at least.
I certainly would not be happy to use it, while changing a lightbulb, with those bare bushings next to me.
Posted By: mamills Re: Transformer Room - 09/03/06 06:18 PM
In the situation I mentioned, the school officials finally took action a few weeks before Christmas vacation. The psychos that were doing this stuff suddenly disappeared - we never saw them again for the remainder of the school, and even after that (good riddance to them). The school also began securely locking the doors to the stairwell which led to the basement boiler room. I'm assuming that the transformer room was also somewhere in the basement - I remember seeing the overhead power lines going underground at a pole near the back of the school.

Thinking about it now, I imagine the school wound up in some very hot water when the POCO eventually discovered that the room was not secured.

Mike (mamills)
Posted By: trobb Re: Transformer Room - 09/04/06 07:50 PM
My high school was beyond vigilant. There are TWO basements. To get from the stage craft area (only real electric danger is in the dimmer room, but the only ones who go in the basement know why it is kept locked [basement is only open to stage folks]) to the switchgear area you have to go upstairs, through a locked door, and down a second staircase. Pain in the butt for maintenance, but nice for safety. This is how it was built circa 1950.
Switch to: my college. The cutoffs, etc. for the whole building (lang. arts) are on a creaky platform accessed (no security AT ALL) by a narrow, hand-built, old ladder. There is no LOTO available, and anyone can get to ANY breaker for the building. This is how it was UPGRADED circa 1970.

Edit: grammar

[This message has been edited by trobb (edited 09-04-2006).]
Posted By: mxslick Re: Transformer Room - 09/08/06 04:07 AM
Quote
eew , did the perp survive the blast to get a hot seat in front of principal, PoCo reps/lineman and maintenace foreman?

First, I should clarify the "violent" in the failure mode. Both times there was only the expulsion of oil, not flaming, but very smelly (and probably PCB to boot). I don't recall the make of the switch, but it looked a lot like one in a post on here some time ago. (If I locate the thread I'll link it.)

One instance, the kid was caught when mom came to the school office to complain about the nasty stains on her son's clothes. [Linked Image]

The second instance, no perp was caught.

Another dangerous example of kids messing with things they shouldn't happened when some kids broke the lock on the POCO's GOAB (Gang Operated Air Break) pole-mounted switch. It was NOT set up with arcing horns, and the resulting phase-to-phase flashover blacked out a large area. Now there's some kids whose mom had to deal with some nasty laundry!! [Linked Image] They weren't caught either.
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