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Posted By: electure Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/03/06 12:42 PM
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Hello to all , i just joined the website , i am looking foward to all it has to offer, i too keep a camera with me and would like to share some photos . last week i was sent to a strip mall where there was a fire, check out the mess i found ! also see the thin wire that looks like a slinky that is the remains of the exaust fan

John (jynb)


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Posted By: Radar Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/03/06 03:29 PM
Thanks for the pictures John. And let me say Welcome to ECN.

What a mess. Let me guess, the cause of the fire has been determined to be an electrical fault, right?
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/03/06 10:38 PM
What ever happened to "a workman like manner?"

Welcome to ECN.
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/04/06 12:49 AM
Since when is romex used in commercial installations? [Linked Image]
Posted By: Ryan_J Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/04/06 01:42 AM
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Since when is romex used in commercial installations?

Everyday.
Posted By: mahlere Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/04/06 01:00 PM
thanks ryan- the key here isn't the romex, it's the way it was installed.

there are thousands of buildings wired correctly in romex that function properly everyday.

the only thing that really catches my eye is that there is mc/bx in the building, makes me wonder about the occupancy and the allowable wiring methods here. Also, if the MC/BX was the original install, whoever ran romex didn't keep the integrity of the building or perform in a workmanlike manner.

but don't blame the romex, it was the romexer that's to blame.
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/05/06 06:53 AM
I've yet to come across romex installed in a commercial installation over here. (at least that wasn't put in by someones cousins friends uncles brother-in-law who knows "lectricull")

Most houses here of the romex era are wired with romex, and I personally have nothing against that when it's done properly... But finding romex in a strip mall would suprise me about as much as the schuko outlet I found in someones garage... in Cerritos, California [Linked Image]
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/05/06 03:16 PM
I run into an awful lot of NM used to wire 2x4s in commercial drop ceilings. I believe that the majority of these buildings were inspected, so it must have been legal at one point, yes?

-John
Posted By: Rewired Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/05/06 03:39 PM
I know of only one commercial building here that was done in Romex.. Only thing is its a metal clad, wood framed building... because its "combustable" they allowed romex, and the only point at which it is visable is where it emerges from the wall and enters the panel... anything that is exposed or would be such as if there was going to be a drop ceiling in the original plans somewhere, the drops to the lights would have been in BX cable...
A.D
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/06/06 03:51 AM
I do not understand what the issue is when using NM cable in a commercial installation.

For those who may think it is not permitted, please provide us with the section number of the NEC.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/06/06 06:10 AM
PC, that is a rather interesting request- and I suspect that you know the answer better than most!

Prior to the 2005 code, the NEC, in sections 334.10 and 334.12, very nicely danced around the issue. What it seemed to say - while not explicitly saying so- was that NM was intended for use in rather small, basic dwellings. Reading between the lines, the code seemed to assume that NM was designed for use in wood-stud (balloon frame) construction- a type that is rather rare in commercial applications, and limited to three floors by the strength of the wood.

There seemed to always be the presumption- I remember many such discussions in the '60's, in a "booming" Chicago area housing market- that the reason for NM was to allow lesser skilled folks to rapidly run the minimal circuits needed in homes.

Now, "I recall" and "It seemed" are hardly the basis for a code ruling! Even with the liberalizing of "uses permitted" in the 2005 NEC, many places still very much restrict the use of NM. Some ban it completely; others specifically restrict it to homes. For example, the City of Reno ammends 334.10 to limit the use of NM only to residential occupancies (new construction).

Perhaps it is a trade "snob factor" that leads many electricians to associate NM with DIY work; yet these pics show a case of where someone managed to mess up something as simple as NM! The lack of bushing and support make it clear that whoever did this work had not the slightest training in proper wiring methods.
Posted By: jnyb Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/06/06 01:33 PM
thank's for pointing that out. it's not so much a romex bx/mc issue as it is clearly that someone came in and threw this work in with no regard for the code or anyone's life.
to see the rest of the work in person you would clearly see that this person has no buisness doing elec work.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/06/06 01:45 PM
Reno, that is the way it is where I'm at, no NM in commercial apps.

Usually we find it done by the out-of-staters, who never bother to check local codes and ordinances. The come in and out under the cover of darkness, never pull permits, or inspections.


Dnk..
Posted By: mahlere Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/06/06 03:02 PM
a quick look in the 2002 code (we haven't adopted the 2005 here yet) shows a change in the use of NM in dropped ceilings. No longer legal in anything other than single/multifamily dwellings.

As a rule, MC is wire of choice for commercial (quicker and easier than taking all the extra steps needed for romex in steel studs) but, it was legal at one time.

As a quick aside, we have a mess of buildings on the beach here that are all in romex - the thing is, all these buildings are 8,10,12 story buildings. But they are right on the beach and the installations have lasted for over 20 yrs now. MC/BX would have completely corroded years ago.
Posted By: e57 Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/07/06 08:33 AM
Can't use romex in commercial 'round here either... In mixed use buildings we can use it in the residential portion seperated by a 2-hour wall and ceiling envelope.

Local code:
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336-5(a). ( Uses Not Permitted )
Add a new section as follows:

(10) In any nonresidential structure or occupancy.

From what I understand, and it is eveident in the construction of many buildings here, that early on romex in its early incarnations wasn't allowed in residential either. Apparently held out until the mid-late sixties. The story Ol' Uncle Joe told me was that some Mayors daughter died in what was deemed an "electrical fire", and that new fangled "romex" was blamed. So you'll see homes wired in K&T up until then.

Other than that, pic #1 obviously had other issues with OCP, on top of the insulation failure.
Posted By: electure Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/07/06 01:41 PM
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But they are right on the beach and the installations have lasted for over 20 yrs now. MC/BX would have completely corroded years ago.

Not at all.

MC and BX/AC cable have been used successfully here inside buildings all up and down the coast.

The NEC 3 story NM rule has been in effect for at least 30 yrs. Looks like $ talked in this case? [Linked Image]
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/07/06 01:55 PM
seems to me, if Mc corroded away, so would the boxes, receps, meter cans,breakers...ect..

Dnk...
Posted By: mahlere Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/07/06 05:51 PM
not to the same extent. different coatings. right on the beach you'll find mc/bx that is nothing but rusted shards, but the boxes still are instact to great extent.

can't explain it - not an engineer- just have seen it often.
Posted By: electure Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/08/06 12:46 AM
Oh, the other stuff corrodes, too. This cover was under a carport for 40 yrs.

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The old guy that brought this into the supply house was very mad that they didn't have a new exact replacement cover. He was yelling that everything else was just fine, and he didn't want a whole panel.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/08/06 12:53 AM
LOL @ electure...
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/08/06 02:15 AM
Ok for my two cents, if it is in commercial AND there is any resturants sharing the same general floor level and area, you will almost always get you some rat chewing going on wherever the romex is exposed enough for the rats to get to it. I have seen this enough times to feel strongly against it's use for those commercial spaces where tenant may be a resturant.
Posted By: yaktx Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/08/06 02:59 AM
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He was yelling that everything else was just fine, and he didn't want a whole panel.

That deadfront appears to be from a Stab-Lok panel, no?

About a month ago I did a service change, then hauled the old FPE panel back home. A couple of days later I got an irate call from the customer, saying he'd promised the old panel to his uncle and he wanted it back. I said I'd be happy to return it, although I would strongly discourage the re-installation of such equipment. He said he'd pass the advice along.
Posted By: yaktx Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/08/06 03:14 AM
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The NEC 3 story NM rule has been in effect for at least 30 yrs.

To be exact, this prohibition dates to the '75 NEC. I've been told that the campaign in favor of this rule was supported by an overwhelming barrage of photos depicting damage inflicted on the cable during construction. That is the reason for this restriction-- not rats, or fire rating, or anything else.

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right on the beach you'll find mc/bx that is nothing but rusted shards, but the boxes still are instact to great extent.

This won't happen with Al-armored MC, a product with which I've had much experience. What is wrong with it is lack of mechanical strength. Get an overzealous sheetrocker and the stuff just unravels. You can practically get it to break by sneezing on it. This doesn't happen with steel BX.
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/08/06 03:57 AM
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He was yelling that everything else was just fine

OK... That cover doesnt appear to be from any kind of 3R rated panel I've ever seen, not to mention the door on it has probably been gone ½ it's lifetime.. It looks like an old Murray or ITE panelcover.. Now if the cover has sustained this much deterioration, what could possibly keep the can from looking the same way???
Posted By: techie Re: Romex and the Strip Mall Fire - 02/13/06 09:32 PM
Possibly because the cover had been off the panel, and under the carport for 40 years?
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