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Posted By: electure That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 11:17 AM
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I went on a prebid job walk, and saw this example of cheapskate maintenance. The first picture is the top of a well. The others are in the underground control room that has water chemicals and part or the storage tank in it

nesparky

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[This message has been edited by electure (edited 06-06-2004).]
Posted By: electure Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 11:18 AM
Here are some more!!

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Posted By: PCBelarge Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 01:32 PM
This is one of the reasons people think 'real' electricians are too expensive. A low ball 'person' (for lack of a better term on a sunday morning) will come in there and do the work for practically nothing and make it work - no safety or professionalism at all.

Now Nesparky comes to the job ... what does he do?
I would not touch this with a 10 foot pole, unless I was PAID to replace all of the work that was previously installed in violation. Walk away with my integrity and loss of time or show these people what a good electrician can do.

Pierre
Posted By: iwire Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 02:21 PM
We are all different, for one I am not the boss I can not choose where I will and will not work.

That aside I would have no problem installing code compliant wiring in this location and ignoring the rest of the junk work.

I am not an inspector and unless the customer wants me to fix it I will ignore it. (Yes there is a cut off point to that) My refusal to do code compliant wiring in this space will not fix the other work and will only result in the customer getting a fly by nighter to add more dangerous wiring.

My integrity will still be intact as the work I do will meet code.

When the inspector comes in they can determine if things need fixing, and if they have the authority to make it happen.

In the end we should be happy that this customer that normally allows hack work to be done is now hiring a professional.

JMO, Bob
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 02:47 PM
I'll side with Bob.

I get a lot of situations like this,and if I refused to do ANY work unless I could replace the bad stuff I'd be in foul shape for work sometimes.

What I do in a situation like this is document all the code violations I can see,and leave it up to the customer as to repairs. I also document carefully what We are asked to do,and have started taking pictures of before and after,and documenting the work that WE do.

Being as there's no ahj in my home county this is the best we can do. The "all or nothing" approach will work for some in different parts of the country,but not here.


Russell
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 04:51 PM
cheapskate maintenance?? This is outright dangerous!!! This place obviously gets wet at least on the floor... The romex extension cord cap ended thing wrapped around the compressor could fall into water on this floor.. Since its hardwired (If you wanna call it that)... Someone's gonna end up crispy down here! [Linked Image] another orange cord wired into the 4S box..
With the danger to life factor I'm seeing here, I'm on Pierre's side! I add something down here, code compliant & all, & then something goes wrong with the hack crap.. Who's gonna get the subpoena? Me with my business or Joe Handyman who's already moved on to new victims! [Linked Image]

-Randy
Posted By: iwire Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 05:43 PM
Randy given what you said what would you do?

I do not worry in the least about being sued for work I did not do.
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 08:53 PM
My statement was and is that I will not take the new work unless they paid for me (or someone else) to fix the 'dangerous' and non-compliant existing work. Everybody has different tolerances for their daily 'routines', I was very fortunate to have enough work the last 25 years that I could walk away from this kind of mess.

These photos show not only bad work, but dangerous work. IF you were to complete new work, if it is filed for (permit), the AHJ should do something about this. But there are many jurisdictions that do not require licenses or permits (I cannot understand why), then I believe that a legitimate installer is still taking a huge liability in his/her hands if not fixing the existing work. Why not walk away? Do you think they really are concerned about your 'quality' work if they do not want the existing fixed?
I am not fooled by smiling faces these days.

Pierre
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 08:59 PM
When I first started my business, I did do some work without a permit (no inspections). I really thought I was getting over on the unsuspecting building departments. As the years went by, I realized the only person who may benefit was the customer, and that is not always the case either. About 5 years ago I started filing all of my work, losing only a couple of small jobs as the customer did not want to file the work. I never felt like a thief in the night after that.

Pierre
Posted By: iwire Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/06/04 09:45 PM
Pierre I do not want to start something but I have to say I feel insulted.

Apparently I am a thief in the night, or have lost my integrity.

Walking away is not my choice, I do the job I am assigned.

Walking away when given the choice is the easy way out.

You know the expression "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade".

Well when I get handed a bad job I make the best of it, establish a relationship with the customer.

You guarantee nothing will change at this location if you do 'walk away'.


JMO, Bob
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/07/04 12:48 AM
Bob,
Maybe 5 times out of 10, when I see work like this, unless its left over from a previous owner/tenant with a new owner in charge; I'm not going to be talking to anyone who gives a damn about anything but "make it work, cheap!" & there obviously not going to pay for an experienced electrician to do what they want the right way. I sure no one has meant offense to you, as I'm sure your work ethic & skills are light years above what is seen here..
What I'd do in most circumstances is ask the person if they realize this & that are a shock/fire hazard.. Then I'll inform them that we should do something about the mess before any kind of "incident" occurs & then give them a price accordingly.. I've gotten better over time at people letting me at least safety off things that are of serious risk beyond just code violations.. Some of them go for the repair, & then all is better...
The other half of the time I come across this stuff is from/for people who just, amazingly, don't know any better.. People in general that Ive come across don't realize "why" electricity can cause a fire, or "how" it can kill a person beyond the obvious.. Getting into the physics of electricity just a bit seems to go quite a ways with some people & I'm guessing, intrigues, them into wondering what the right way is & why it's the right way, regardless of it just "working" another way. The people that worry me the most are the ones that DO know better & STILL do crap like this! [Linked Image]
There's been many times I've raised my prices higher than I normally would for something, & then said "I'm also going to take care of this over here just for safety's sake" for free or close to free.. This has worked a few times also..
If a serious enough situation exists & all fails after all the explaining & teaching so to speak, I'll tell the customer to save their money for their insurance deductible... they're gonna need it! [Linked Image]

-Randy
Posted By: ga.sparky56 Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/07/04 01:14 AM
I think one of the things here is looking at it from an employee point of view. I worked for others for yearsand had to do the jobs I was given.

As long as what I did was safe and code-compliant,I had no qualms about doing as I was told,and did to feed my family.

Another thing is,I can understand the folks who work in a big market area turning down work like this,I probably would too.

But as I said,if I walked away from every job like this(and a lot worse)I'd be out of a job a lot,heck,I'd have to go back to the factory. And,they would get someone else to continue that hack work.

I meant no disrespect to PC by agreeing with Bob,and I hope that is understood.

It's just that some of us don't have the option of walking away if we want to stay in the electrical field.

I would like to think that if I can get in there and as Bob says establish a relationship with the customer,I can at least insure that future work will be well done,and just may be I can get them to change the bad stuff.

Maybe it's presumptious of me,but I like to think I can make a difference,and change the way things are done here,and I can only do it if I'm involved in jobs like this.

Russell
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/07/04 01:37 AM
Bob
Don't feel insulted, as my post was not directed at any one person- especially someone of your stature as shown in your prior posts [Linked Image]. I like to ramble on and you just happened to post before me.

Remember as an employee, you do not have the responsibility or liability that the owner (licensee) has. As the one who holds the liability, I would not take the chance.
Again, do you believe the owner or one responsible for this project really cares if they do not want it cleaned up, or worse maybe were responsible for letting this happen in the first place. I do not need the headache and choose not to do the work. That has been my good fortune.

Ga.sparky, I take no offence. You and anyone else here do not need mine or anyone elses consent to voice your own opinion, that is one of the great parts of this and the other forums. You are also correct in stating that the market I work in provides a ton of work - good and bad [Linked Image]

Pierre
Posted By: DougW Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/09/04 03:55 AM
Obviously, coming to this as an independent EC and as an employee will put you in two very different frames of mind.

That said, if I was doing a pre-bid walk as an EC, I'd most likely include an added-on sub-total to the bid sheet to include the following work:

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Repair and or replacement of wiring methods and materials that are, in the contractor's opinion, unsafe, hazardous, and/or in gross violation of accepted national and local codes and practices, including the following (list examples)

If the customer insists you ignore it, and you get the job for the other wiring, an exceptionally well documented description of work originally requested by customer, work suggested by EC with a list of violations/hazards, and work actually performed by EC after informing customer of said hazards would accompany any completion sheet / invoice, and be kept in personal records for many years, with pics.

C Y A is always in effect, brothers!
Posted By: nesparky Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/09/04 03:31 PM
During and after this bid walk I sent the architect/engineers a copy of these photos and a recomended repairs list. I hoped they would add the repairs into the origional bid solication. The owner did add this to the bid and delayed the bid date.
I also found out that the well in pic 1 has collapsed and no longer has power to it.

Unfortunatly some residents in the area are sueing to stop the new well drilling so this is on hold until the court case gets resolved.

[This message has been edited by nesparky (edited 06-09-2004).]
Posted By: JimA Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/09/04 09:18 PM
I was at a bid a few years back that looked similar to this and i refused to bid without bringing everything up to code, well that very night there was a fire cause by the wiring, after the investigation they told me that if the owner had of wanted to they could have sued me because i did not insist that it be done and that i should have turned this into the local inspector, that because i being the professional should have known that it was not safe to leave
Posted By: electure Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/09/04 10:20 PM
Dang,
If I keep agreeing with Bob, it's going to ruin our reputation, [Linked Image] but:
Any time I go into an existing job, I expect to find non-compliance. I don't think there's a building around that I can't find a violation (or 100) in.
I've never been shy about voicing my opinion about dangerous or unsafe things I find.

Rather than shooting myself in the foot repeatedly, I make sure that the customer is aware of any hazards I find, and I'll do my work to Code.
If I don't work it this way, I think the customer will just get another "hack" to come out and screw things up some more.

I will not add anything to an already goofed up install unless I can pick it up from a point before the goof ups.

"We'll have to run a new circuit from your panel in order to do this correctly."
NOT
"This thing's a big &^$%#@*() mess. If I can't fix it all, stuff it where the Sun don't shine"

I still retain my integrity, and go to bed at night (real early), [Linked Image] knowing that I made things better instead of worse.

Sometimes it pays off. My "thar she blows" pictures (on another thread) caused some major action when I gave the customer a copy of them.

If you can't fix it all, at least do what you can. Don't shoot yourself in the foot...S
Posted By: iwire Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/10/04 12:01 AM
Scott

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Dang,
If I keep agreeing with Bob, it's going to ruin our reputation,

I am glad you risked your reputation. [Linked Image]

Your post expressed the point I was trying to get across much better than I was able to.

I understand it is different to be a business owner, I have nothing but respect for those that make the leap and go on their own.

One of the reasons respect is due is the fact you are taking risks everyday, I am not saying you should not CYA.

But IMO saying you will not work in a building that has violations is not necessary, good for your company or the customer.

I do agree documentation is a important.

JMO, Bob
Posted By: DougW Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/10/04 04:15 PM
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But IMO saying you will not work in a building that has violations is not necessary, good for your company or the customer.

Unless you designed, roughed and trimmed the building yourself, have done ALL the subsequent service-call work, and "baby-sat" the occupancy, you can never be sure there isn't a violation somewhere on the premises. As such, I'd love to adopt a "violation free workplace" but I don't think that's entirely possible in the real world.

But when it's so blatant, AND in the immediate area of where you're expected to work, you need to really CYA documentation-wise if the owner tells you to "MYOB and do what I'm paying you for", so he doesn't succeed in holding you liable for work he claims he knew nothing about after the catastrophe occurs.

Although I'm sure a jury could find one of us liable because we didn't hog-tie the SOB and fix it against his will, as least we should have more protection against criminal / AHJ charges if we can show the investigators a stack of paper and pics that prove "I told him he needed to fix A, B, & C... here's his written refusal of work"
Posted By: Bjarney Re: That's no way to treat water - 06/10/04 09:00 PM
Aside from being sultry as a jungle in a lot of subsurface equipment rooms, if any chlorine or corrosives are used in water treatment, airborne vapors will corrode electrical gear in no time. You can often hear buzzing/chattering magnetic starters with their very rusty pole faces from about 200 yards away.

[Notice in pic 3 that someone accidentally installed a ‘raintite’ A-B enclosure with deluxe driphood.]
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