Let me take a guess, that neutral which is spliced in the panel came loose, or was the bonding screw, which bonds the neutral to the panel left in by mistake.

[This message has been edited by CRM (edited 05-24-2004).]

CRM.... I opened a jbox down the line from here & noticed my hotstick lit up on the white & green wires... metered them & got 240V... Someone didnt seem to understand what colors to use for hots when this was installed!

-Randy

When I saw these photos my code book just burst into flames.

Randy,

Do you know who in the world did that work? What were you trouble-shooting?

Is that undersized green conductor being used as the line-side neutral?
Where are any EGCs?
Where's the equipment ground bus?

-John

[This message has been edited by BigJohn (edited 05-24-2004).]

The mis-use of colors is a concern but what really worries me is I see no grounding conductor heading out the LT.

Or do I see a black 12 AWG as the grounding conductor for 30 amp circuits?

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 05-24-2004).]

Good one Bigjohn,code book burst into flames!lol
Yea,that job looks like home owner Bob and shade tree neighbor job, I`ll bet his wife was impressed though.My hubby can do anything,Dont you just love it.

Oh and I forgot to mention the free advice from the Home depot dude.

The line EGC is the smaller green conductor landed on the neutral bar . The line grounded conductor(unidentified)is the one spliced with the blue wire nut . The load grounded conductors are also black . Green and white ungrounded load conductors . At least the panel is a Square D (Homeline?).

Just how much lighting is out there, that needs two 30A 240V circuits plus another 120V circuit? (Is that 20A on the single-pole breaker? Can't quite make it out on my monitor.)

Randy,
Where were the conductors landed on the load side?
It seems like anyone with the smarts to use the oversize conductors should have had the smarts to know about the grounding/grounded conductor stuff.
Homeline is the "Premier" brand available at our Home Depots, BTW.

Bob,
Most of the 3/4" LTFMC we use is listed as an equipment grounding conductor up to 60 Amps, 1/2" to 20 Amps.

LT can be an EGC, up to six feet total.


It looks to me like more than six feet in the photo and I just get the feeling the entire run is in un supported LT.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 05-25-2004).]

Yes, Bob, you're right!
I had completely spaced out & forgotten the 6'limit...Sorry...S

Might have been color blind? And the other violations, well we'll just chalk those up to a very hard drinkin weekend and this was the first job on a monday morning for them. or they paid the home depot gut to come out on the side and do it.

So is the terminal strip at the top a grounding bar (green wire coming in with feed from the left) Or is it a neutral bar (black wire coming in with feed from the left)?

There I go assuming the feed is the left hand side.

Oh my, What a concept! Feed from the right!
We are also assuming that the bar is at ground potential. It could be hot, and one of the other legs could be the neut (except for Randy's V readings).
There you go using common sense again, Bob

Alrighty then! Here's the deal as far as I could gather...
Customer called someone from the "Thrifty Nickel" to move the subpanel as he was having stone work done on the wall in question & didn't want to see the panel from his "Theatre Room" window.. (Isn't the thrifty nickel the first place someone with an 8 car garage full of things like a Ferrari Enzo, Porsche GT2, 4 Harleys & a tour bus sized RV would normally shop? )so it was moved about 40'.. (The length of the sealtite on the load side, line side was about 20'..) You can see how thrilled the homeowner looks At first, the HO's wife told me she thought the lights were controlled by a timer at the pool equiptment area.. This is where I started my troubleshoot since the pool equiptment was running... Looked in the timers & found nothing, found a 2G W/p box kinda sitting on the edge of the fence & got the weird readings.. followed the sealtite back to the subpanel.
The terminal bar in the subpanel (Square D Homeline.. Depots panel of champions! ) had BOTH neutrals & grounds landed on it... It does feed from left to right... (50A 240V from a seriously packed 200A meter/distribution combo) The 2 blacks on the terminal bar are neutral/ground for a BBQ about 80' away... At the w/p box, the hot was tied to neutral for the 20A ckt! Course, how would he know? 3 black #12's! The original EGC from the w/p box on was #10..
I sent Bill more pics to post from this place to give a better idea of the layout & a few more things you guys might find provocative!

-Randy

more:

Besides industry accepted field practices, where is green prohibited from being used as an ungrounded conductor?

In the first picture there would be a violation of 310.12(C) (just for one violation) in any case.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 05-28-2004).]

Roger,
It's in 310-12(c) ('99, my '02 isn't handy)
"Ungrounded conductors shall be distinguished by colors other than white, natural gray, or green"

Now, what about a LV thermostat cable that has a green conductor?

1999

The wording was changed for 2002.

2002



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 05-29-2004).]

That is interesting, that the'99 wording was changed in the'02 for distinguishing the color coding of ungrounded conductors - I wonder why sometimes a good thing has to be changed.

Back to the topic: Making fun of the pictures is fun, but it hides the fact that there are big problems out there. It has become almost epidemic in proportion how much of this type of wiring is going on today. It is a sad state that the almighty $ and lack of education has brought our society to a dangerous level of safety to save a buck. Even worse is these people (both the installer and the cheap customer) have put the good electrician's name in bad light. What I mean by that is whenever there is a fire these days, the first question is "was it started by electric". Like Joe Tedesco has stated, SOME HOW WE NEED TO CLEAN THIS UP!!!!!
I know it shouldn't, but this kind of stuff is really starting to make me sick.

Pierre

[This message has been edited by PCBelarge (edited 05-29-2004).]

When I see someone who obviously has $$$, yet went to extremes to get something "on the cheap," I delight in charging them a premium to get it working! Such folks deserve no sympathy.

Rule of thumb: if your car, house, etc., are nicer than mine, I am the one who deserves a break!