This is work done by one of our crews. Their work is generally good, but there's an obvious violation. Can you do better than the local inspectors and spot it? (not the workspace violation)






The guys have never been called on it, so stopping the "habit" won't happen until there's another option (Screaming and yelling would get me nowhere, I'd like to offer something positive).

Does anyone have any ideas? How would you make it better and Code compliant??
...S



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 04-17-2004).]

Electure,
Are you concerned with gutter fill and derating?

How close are those transformers to the wall? Do they have a vent opening on the 'back'?

-Jon

What's with the apparantly unsupported pipe...was it placed there as a spacer, and then forgotten?

pic1 - behind the xformers

pic2 - a little more obvious... just behind the xformer - 8 blocks up from the c-strut.

In the transformers, do the conductors go under the core to the lugs, over the core to the lugs, or are the lugs facing the wall?

-Jon

Just a wild guess here.. but are the top breakers in the bigger panels too high up from the floor?

Scott you got me stumped.

I thought of labels but I think I see some.

I thought of the transformers in the working space but they are too high for that.

I thought of protection from physical damage but that is a subjective article and if the AHJ does not think these are subject to damage then it is OK.

So what is it?

Pretty nice looking parallel pipe work.

Bob

Trough above the panels??

Those 2 seal offs going into that 1 panel must be some expensive.

Is it a car shop, looks like a transmission jack??

I must agree with TXSparky on the gutter fill. Thats all I can really see.

Wow!
Yes, it's the derating in the wireway. Everything else is ok. (The C/B's aren't above 6'7", the sealoffs are all poured, xfrmrs have plenty of clearance, lugs are on front bottom. I don't see any unsupported pipe)
The wires in that wireway should be derated to 35%. Most of those panelboards are 42 circuits, and the number of conductors in a cross-section greatly exceeds 40. 310-15(b)(2)(a).


Can you think of another way that this could be done and have it come out clean and still comply??


(And yes, it's an auto service garage)...S

Scott don't most of the conductors pass straight through the wireway?

If most of them just pass through I doubt you have more than 30 conductors in the cross section of the wire way.

This should get some discussion going.

Bob

If there is any rolling stock [forklifts!] within a 4-mile radius, concrete/pipe bollards could save some death and destruction.

Er, article 110 working-space illumination OK?

{There are some serious manhours in those wall sections.}




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 04-17-2004).]

The panels under the transformers don't have any conduits coming out of the top of the gutter. This tells me the lay flat over to one of the left or right where the conduits are. It's real easy to get more than 30 conductors that way.

The gutter in the bottom picture looks like it's probably seriously crowded.

A solution??

I racked my brain for a while and all I could come up with is this: spend a lot of time meticulously planning and laying out the conduits so they more or less land in their respective panel(s) right below.

Having done little commercial work, this is a new one on me. I learn something new everyday here.

Peter

Ain't that the truth. Here's one done in a similar fashion, by a different company.





A 42 circuit panel, full up, will typically have from 42 to 60 to even (a rare, extreme case) 88 wires exiting. They all have to go somewhere.

I love intriguing posts like this one!

Excellant pictures Scott !!

Nice pictures, Electure. I can barely imagine the amount of work put into that. For me it's interesting to see this setup as it looks entirely different from what it would look like here in Scandinavia. (Metal conduit isn't used and consequently wireways of the type in the pictures don't exist.)

I'm curious: Are there multiple compartments inside large wireways to limit the number of wires that run together? It seems the risk for mistakes would be significant and the derating factor be terrible with a single compartment.

{Sorry for the possible threadjack}

Is the room included in the photos a classified location up to 18" AFF, or are these seal offs simply satisfying the boundary requirements?

If it is in a classified location, is that fan identified for use in the area?


BTW: Great looking pipework.

The room is about 50'x200'in the first pic, and yes, it's Class1 Div2 up to 18". It's part of a Toyota dealership's body shop.
We've no control over what the mechanics plug into the recps. (at 48"AFF) once the job's done. I can say, though, that these fans are used in many other dealer's garages.

The second pic is in an entrance to another part of the service garage. Bollard's?? We suggested removeable bollards. The sleeves are even in the floor, just under the concrete. The customer wouldn't have it, though, and the inspector didn't demand them. Scary thought.

Bob, On subject of labelling, there is another violation! The label on the wireway should be visible after installation, not turned inside for "asthetic purposes" Good Eye!

Getting the crew to plan their work, as Nick did in his installation, would be like getting a tiger to change his stripes to spots like a leopard.

What about using 18x24 boxes above the panels instead of the wireway, and nippling them together? (This is the only "solution" I've been able to come up with so far)

What do you think?...S

are you not breaking the code by having conductors from multiple sources within the same raceway?

No codes broken on mixing
systems.

There are requirements for
identification of the different
systems.

Scott, I have used 12" x 12" trough and
just bought extra ends for it so I
could make separate compartments in it.

I have done this just for ease of identification,
each compartment handled
a separate panel.

I had intended to put some chase nipples
through the barriers if needed but
we did not need to.

I think it looks "cleaner" than separate
enclosures.

Bob



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 04-21-2004).]

I am sure that in Canada that this would not pass,because there are different sources in the same raceway.
In the States if you had two panels side by side and ran a con duit out of each one into a single junction box and incorporated these from here in a single conduit,is that o.k.?

General practice here is to not mix systems but it's only a violation when dealing with article 700 emergency systems and hospital critical/life safety systems. If I understand your question correctly what you describe is OK in the states.

'99NEC 300-3
(c) Conductors of Different Systems.
(1) 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Conductors of circuits rated 600 volts, nominal, or less, ac circuits, and dc circuits shall be permitted to occupy the same equipment wiring enclosure, cable, or raceway. All conductors shall have an insulation rating equal to at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the enclosure, cable, or raceway.
Exception: For solar photovoltaic systems in accordance with Section 690-4(b).
FPN: See Section 725-54(a)(1) for Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors.



Bob,
Does this make it not a wireway??

In the past, Tom, one of our members, has brought up the idea of a "custom made box" with the same dimensions as the wireway.

So, what would be the real difference between a wireway with 50 conductors in a cross section, or a box with 50 conductors in a cross section??


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 04-21-2004).]

Code or real world?

This is just my opinion but the NEC (correctly so) assumes worst case loading
of all conductors, but be honest are all those conductors loaded up to the max
at the same time?

Not on most jobs I work, the last one I
worked had 3 duplex outlets per circuit.

A 126 circuit panel (triple tub)
is drawing less than 50 amps per
leg.

If I had run all those circuit
into the panel in one 4" conduit
I would be surprised if it got
warm. (I did not do this, it is
a code compliant job.)

Bob