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Posted By: Admin OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/05/04 09:47 PM
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Hey there,

German installation again, 30 Year old box with newer additions, 3400W running on this one.

Actually you can close the cover, but as i did after shooting the pic, one of the wires got cut by a terminal of the old porcelain block in the back... BANG.

Violations
- Gn/Ye conductor used as phase (!!!!)
- Red conductor (old GND) used as corresponding wire for a 2-point light switching.
- these #%@€*s built a ground fault, and instead of searching for it, they simply cut the GND wire to get the master GFCI back on. Imagine that!
- fitted 2 cables into one fitting -> lowering the IP class
- Ran into the u-boats from both sides
- violation of my personal point of view: totally bodge. If i had a company and one of my workers did that (the cut gnd thing), i'd kick him out

greetings
:andy:
Posted By: CTwireman Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/06/04 02:05 AM
Thanks for the pic Andy. Some things never change, no matter where you are!
Posted By: Mean Gene Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/06/04 10:00 PM
Are those Wago's, or some other type of connector?
Posted By: electricman2 Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/06/04 11:30 PM
Looks like they may have a set screw.
Posted By: pauluk Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/07/04 10:37 AM
It looks like another wire cut as well -- Blue emerging from the connector top right. Or was that blue wire the one that was being used for ground?

The connectors look as though they may be the set-screw type. The type we use in the U.K. are slightly different with two screws, supplied in strips so that you can cut the plastic between them to get a block of one, two, or however many are needed. They're colloquially called "chocolate blocks," as they were dark brown/black originally. Most are a clear plastic nowqadays, but I've never seen any in the bright color of these German types!
Posted By: :andy: Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/07/04 04:46 PM
These are no wagos, these were the standard connectors before the wagos came. They do just have one hole and one screw.

thats a wago: http://320036920636.bei.t-online.de/wagoclamp.jpg

the blue wire was cut during some change, of course it should have been removed completely.
thats actually the terminal where the phase runs on green-yellow.

we do have choc blocks too of course, but these are not used in junction boxes.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 01-07-2004).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/07/04 07:35 PM
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- Red conductor (old GND) used as corresponding wire for a 2-point light switching.
Actually no violation. VDE was much less strict on the use of red wire than it is now with yellow-green. Old 3-way switching systems often used the red and grey wires of NYIF as travelers (Korrespondierende). 4 wire 3ph wiring used red as a phase color.
Those setscrew connectors are used along with choc blocks and often regarded as the worst crap ever made. They're called "single box clamp" (Einzeldosenklemme) and it's pretty challenging to wire hem in such a manner you don't have hot wires poking out on one end. If you try to too many wires into them some will invariably fall out. I only use them in emergencies when a box is really too tight and I can't replace it. Most electricians here still use choc blocks.
We had that type of junction boxes in the basement and upon rewiring I just removed the terminal block (bakelite in that case) and thereby converted it to a modern box. I wasn't really keen on using 50-year-old terminal blocks with open screws. Choc blocks offer some level of protection, even with the box cover off. This style of j-box was pretty common for basement wiring from I guess the 1950ies to the late 60ies, then most of the brown/black stuff was replaced by light grey. Originally they were used with heavy metal sheathed cloth wire (2 or three rubbber and cloth covered conductors, a thick layer of cloth, a layer of sheet metal and a final layer of asphalted cloth, about the thickness of a water pipe, when I first saw it I thought it was 16mm conduit). Usually brittle as hell, can't work with that stuff unless you wrap all wire outside the sheath with electric tape. I believe it was called Ku(h?)lo cable.
The cut blue wire is absolutely ugly, all he'd have needed to do would have been opening the screw and pulling the wire out.
BTW, what color is the wire next to the cut blue one? Yellow?
And black and grey wires under one screw don't look too good either.
Posted By: :andy: Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/07/04 08:51 PM
the grey ones are the neutrals from the old light switching cables.
the wire next to the cut blue is gn/ye.

i think i can tell you why they didnt open the screw on this one: because they cut it hot, and didnt want no sparking in the connector.

As said, Choc blocks are -never-used in j-boxes here.
how do you use them for i.e. 3 wires? all 3 at one side, and double fixed? or 2 at one side, 1 at the other?
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/08/04 10:41 AM
Most electricians I've seen working used both ways.
Posted By: Mean Gene Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/08/04 05:02 PM
Thanks Andy. I knew I had seen them somewhere before, but couldn't remember what they looked like.

What is the screw with the wire wrapped around it at 9 o'clock position? Is it grounding buss made into the box?
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/08/04 09:18 PM
This style of junction box had a terminal block with four screw terminals, but maybe they were paired in two, usually they were hot and neutral.ˇ
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/08/04 10:29 PM
Andy, why do German electricians not use Choc-blocks inside junction boxes?

Seems like they would be a more practical and easier solution than the U-boats? And you don't have wires poking out the opposite end...

The U-Boats pretty much look like a choc-block with one recessed screw terminal....
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/09/04 12:43 PM
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Seems like they would be a more practical and easier solution than the U-boats? And you don't have wires poking out the
opposite end...
The U-Boats pretty much look like a choc-block with one recessed screw terminal....

No idea. In de.sci.ing.elektrotechnik everyone goes berserk if you start talking about those. Seems they don't really like that stuff...
The wires poking out the opposite end are one of the most awful things about the U-boats.
They're pretty much a choc block cut in half.
Posted By: :andy: Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/09/04 02:14 PM
thats what they are...
i dont know why they're used, but really only few diy'ers use choc blocks for j-boxes here.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 01-09-2004).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/09/04 03:29 PM
OK, so it's not a "code requirement" to make splices in J-boxes using U-Boats only?

Funny that in this case, the DIYers actually are making what seems to be a safer connection because they use choc-blocks.

Would you as a licenced electrician do the same if given the option? [Linked Image]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/09/04 05:14 PM
All the licensed guys from germany I've talked to in de.sci.ing.elektrotechnik would not under any circumstance use neither choc blocks nor U-boats, only Wagos. They say all srew connections will loosen over time, whereas spring loaded connections like Wagos won't. Perosnally I use choc blocks and if the screws are tightened properly I've never had any problems with them. U-boats just feel flimsy to work with and Wagos are a bit suspect to me. Too high-tech.
Posted By: :andy: Re: OverFull Box >> German Style! - 01/09/04 06:50 PM
i in fact wouldnt use choc blocks, because any other sparkie would consider it as bungle. strange but true. totally unusual...
I like and use the wagos, and i trust them. I have see-through ones, so you can verify every single connection.


About the wire at 9 o'clock:
that was a porcelain terminal block with 4 terminals ("klemmstein").
i dont like the system very much, its just a conic shaped screw in a "u" shaped piece of metal. pretty much skill needed here to make a good connection.

i dont know why they didnt just remove the old block before adding their crap...
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