As someone has said of my pics, 3000 miles apart and yet so many similarities.

The "flying splice" and other associated shoddy work seems to be a universal problem.

Hello all,

From "lurking" on this bulletin board for a while, I've picked up on a lot of jargon, so I can understand most of the postings now. I do have some questions, but only one for now. I assume that a "flying splice" is one that is done in the middle of a wiring run without benefit of a box or fixture. Is there a legal method for doing this, or must you cut out the too-short wire and run a new length from box to box? Just trying to avoid having any of my amateur work show up here...

I think the most household wiring work I've done so far is replace a lamp fixture or two, no running of new wire or anything unless it was speaker wire. I'm buying a house soon, however, and I might need to do a little touch-up here and there from time to time. I've done plenty of small appliance, household electronics and automotive wiring work though. I'll probably need to get a newer copy of the NEC, mine is from 1975...

Thanks,
-cajun

[This message has been edited by cajun (edited 07-25-2002).]

Eagle:
Looks like the tip of a very large iceberg. I would imagine you must have done nothing short of a complete rewiring of this house.

It's a good thing the homeowner discovered that something was amiss and called you in to straighten out this mess, before having to call 911.

I wonder how many other "jobs" this carpenter has done?

Cajun: Welcome to ECN! I'm a little fuzzy on the concept of the "flying splice" myself. I do know this about splices (anyone please correct me): 1) splices are required to be made in some type of approved box, not just simply out in the open, 2) splices cannot be made in any form where it is inaccessible (i.e. hidden inside a wall), 3) the box in which the splice is made cannot be left to simply float about; it needs to be secured in place, 4) the box cannot contain more than a certain number of conductors, based on the size of the box, 5) wires entering the box need to be secured to the box by some approved type of clamp, and 6) the box must be grounded.
I assume those are at least the very basics. Can others add to or correct this?

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 07-25-2002).]

I think the "Photos submitted for Discussion" area should be renamed "Hall of Shame."

This wiring is beyond hack....It's tragic.

Yes, the "flying splice" is quite common among amateurs and even among a few so-called professionals. The splices lying in the insulation are perfect examples.

You just about covered it, Mike. Box fill is also determined by the size of the wire in addtion to the size of the box.

Hey everyone,

I have been following these types of BB's for years. I love them. Everyone will get some information out of them sooner or later. As for anyone who "Lurks", do not be afraid, we are all here because we love to talk about electrical codes. Some of us, from all walks of life, but we all want to learn or talk about electrical codes. So please post any question you have about electrical wiring and I am sure some one will responed.


Caper

Hey Guys, It took me and a helper a day and a half to straighten out all the problems here. The worst part about it all was that they blew in pink fiberglass on top of all the new work, so we had to fish around it it to find the wires and repair them.

We did end up re-wiring all the new items including running 2 dedicated circuits from the basement for the master bath outlets and whirlpool. I do worry about the liability of taking a job like this, am I now responsible if I missed a problem like a "flying splice" in the wall? I may start requiring arc fault breakers any time we fix a problem like this.

What I find interesting about all this, is wouldn't it have been easier to do it right? The time it takes to wind all the tape around the splices, you could have mounted a box and done it the way it is supposed to be done.
This guy needs a whacking big capacitor wired to his chair to remind him every time he sits down.

Trainwire

Eagle:
Glad to hear you were able to remove or mitigate the conditions that were visible to you. Not being a legal mind of course, I would think that written documentation of work you have done, along with the risks of yet undiscovered problems/shortcomings in the wiring (and I would be willing to bet there are still some nasty little surprises lurking about) and signed by you and Mr. Homeowner would at least be a good place to start.

Mr.XXXX obviously should give up his electrical "practice" and return to carpentry. I only hope he can join two pieces of wood together better than he can two pieces of wire.

CT: Absolutely. Conductor size is a very important component in figuring box fill. Had a long night, the night before (two house fires). I'm lucky I could remember my own name Thurs. morning. Thanks.

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 07-26-2002).]

With due allowances for different style fittings, that's pretty much the same as is required over here in England. (Most of it is just common sense really!)

About the only major difference is that our j-boxes don't normally have built-in cable clamps, so they need to be clipped near to the box.

I'll 2nd Paul,
one would think even the most noviced will take note of proper installations.........

Thanks for the pointers!

I figured as much, re: no "flying splices" really allowed at all. So, basically, if I want to move an outlet box over a foot and not have a "blank cover" in my wall, I need to pull a new piece of wiring from the next box on the "short side" to my new location and shorten up the wire exiting the box as it will be a foot too long once the box has been moved.

Or did I misunderstand and I could basically use the old outlet box as a "splice box" and screw a flat steel cover over it (or plastic, if it's a plastic box), re-attach it to the wall stud so it fits behind the drywall and cover it up with a chunk of drywall? Or are there special "splice boxes" available which can be "buried" behind drywall? Or must I re-pull the wire or have the "blank cover plate" on the old outlet box?

The houses I'm looking at are 1920's - 1940's construction, most have had their electric service upgraded, no old pushbutton switches left that I've seen yet. Lots still have fuses, though.

Oh, reminds me: I've seen this twice now in places I've been looking at. The original main panel is in place, complete with the original 60 Amp main fuse block and circuit fuses. Follow a wire or conduit from that box and you find a smaller sub-panel with 4-5 breakers in it. Am I to assume that the sub-panel has no main breaker (all were 15-20 amp breakers) or can one put larger fuses in those old main fuse blocks? I've also seen another newer fuse panel (a Square D 100 amp one) that appeared to have four main fuse blocks with two circuit fuses next to each one, and a sub-panel with breakers. In both cases, the ratings on circuit fuses and breakers added up to more than the "nameplate rating" on the main panel. Heck, on the first one I saw that was like this, the sub-panel alone had more breaker amps than the main service panel was listed for!

Is this code? Common? Stupid? (I'd bet on the latter two.) Seems to me you'd have to either run a separate main breaker for the sub-panel or replace the main panel with a higher-rated unit.

Thanks,
-cajun

You can not have *ANY* splices or boxes burried in the wall - all have to be accessible. If you move a box, you will either be lucky and move it to the side where you will have extra wire or more likely will have to rerun the wire from the previous box or from a location where you can add an accessible box (attic, crawlspace, inside a closet). Either that or leave the recepticle in place and run a wire over to the new one.

As for the subpanel on an old fuse panel, it may be fed from one of the branch fuses in the main. You can't just put larger fuses in the main block. The panel has a max limit and it also depends on the size of the feeder.

The best way to clean this up would be to either replace the fuse panel (and service) with a new 150 or 200A service or at least put in a new service and feed the old fuse panel as a sub-panel (splitting neutral/ground in the process).

Cajun,

I recommend that you hire a local Electrician (that is familiar with residential wiring) to take a look at any house that you may be interested in purchasing. He should be in a much better position to explain things to you than we could here. It is not within our scope to delve too deeply into these types of things on this Forum.

Bill

Bill, n1ist,

Thanks for the info. I will most certainly have a professional inspect a house I want to buy.

Okay, all clear on the "no buried splices" part. Figured, but wanted to know if there were any "loopholes" in the code that would provide a safe method to bury a splice. Oh well.

As for the fuse box stuff, I'm mainly curious about the setups because they just "looked wrong". Best get my terminology straight first, eh?

Correct if necessary, please:

Main fuse or breaker - the first thing the power "sees" when it comes out of the meter.

Branch fuse or breaker - the over-current control devices for circuits fed off of the main fuse or breaker.

Main panel - contains the main fuse or breaker and the first group of branch fuses or breakers.

Sub-panel - another panel used to install more branch fuses or breakers when the main panel is full.

Okay, now the questions:

Can the branch circuit fuses or breakers total up to a higher amperage capacity than the main fuse or breaker? I wouldn't think so, but I can see the reasoning behind why it might happen: "Oh, we never turn EVERYTHING on at once..."

How can you run ~85 amps worth of sub-panel breakers off of a branch circuit fuse in a 60-amp main panel? Or off the main breaker, for that matter? I don't think either sounds like a good idea.

If the main panel is in a location that precludes cost-effective replacement, can one run another "main" panel (in parallel to the original main panel) in a more accessible/larger location with its own main and branch breakers? (assuming the from-the-street service is of sufficient capacity and/or has been upgraded)

Last question, and here's where you get to jump all over me.

If a DIY-inclined homeowner wires in a bunch of auxiliary circuits to, say, a garage workshop, leaves all the wiring and connections properly accessible (or doesn't put the drywall on yet in the case of the wiring), leaves sufficient wire at the location of the main panel and leaves it tied-off and physically unconnected to the mains, would a licensed electrical contractor be willing (in general) to come out, inspect the work, correct where necessary, and do the final hook-up which may include getting a service upgrade?

Is this generally more or less expensive than just having the electrician do all the work in the first place, assuming the homeowner is used to reading federal codes and follows the NEC to the best of their ability?

Or is it just plain insulting to the electrician and/or most won't do it because of liability reasons, not wanting the homeowner staring over their shoulder to see where they (the homeowner) "did it wrong and how", etc.?

That'll probably be all for this thread from me, other than a "thanks" or a request for clarification. Probably go over to another "forum" on this board to ask the more theoretical questions...
-cajun

Bill,
He has asked similar types of design/build questions on an air conditioning BB.

Cajun,

We can run circuit-breakers with a combined rating which is greater than the incoming feed to the panel. It is based on a principle known as "diversity," which as you have touched upon above is the idea that everything will not be running simultaneously.

To take a simple example, suppose you have six wall receptacles (normal 15A types) wired on a branch circuit. The protective device will be 15 or 20A, not 90A. To wire the whole house on the basis that every outlet is loaded to maximum would result in a very expensive installation which would almost never be fully loaded in normal use.

That's why the NEC (and the equivalent codes we have in other countries) specify certain circuit configurations to take into account this diversity.

As Bill has pointed out, however, this is getting into quite a complex area which is best left to those with the necessary knowledge and experience.

Hmmmmmm. Looks faaaaaaaintly familiar!

Ya got me Wolfdog, I'm on the HVAC BB a fair amount, true.

I ask questions because I'm curious and like to know how much I don't know about things.

Note the phrasing on that.

Sometimes I'll write like a knowitall (I think we all do that sometimes) but I try to keep in mind that I've little to no practical experience or training in either the HVAC or electrical fields. I do have a BSME, so I can usually understand the technical side of things once I've seen enough context, but I am not going to try and design/build/install my own HVAC and/or wiring system! Though, being an avid DIY type and experimenter, etc. I might try a thing or two in a garage, or at least check for "obvious" things like voltage at breaker, voltage at motor, anything smell burnt, gaping holes anywhere, etc.

There's also the CYA factor, too. No offense, but on both this board and the HVAC board I've heard many a story about a "hack job" by some licensed contractor who likes to cheat a bit and I simply want to know enough that by the time I am in a position to hire a contractor I'll be able to understand what they're telling me and have a better than average chance of catching a rat.

I'm also trying to learn what it is that y'all DON'T like seeing/hearing from your customers or potential customers, as I would rather not PO someone who is working on an expensive piece of equipment or wiring or what have you.

pauluk, thanks for the info. Those panels just looked odd to me, is all, and I was curious. I'll certainly be hiring an electrician because I doubt whatever place I get will be wired to support a welder, etc. in the garage... Especially if it has the original 60A service!

Sorry to ruffle any feathers.
Thanks all the same.
-cajun

Cajun,

I'd like to give a little more in the way of explanation here. As I see it there are a plethora of DIY websites out there that cater to the novice, I have mixed feelings about that, and cannot truly recommend them (or any website forum) as a place for the inexperienced to get information on potentially dangerous things, but I would like to keep this a place where people involved with the Trade or Theory, etc. etc. can interact with each other and thereby benefit.

Some DIY questions may be tolerated by most anyone here and fielded in the appropriate manner, but a BIG problem is that one begats another and another until it is like DIY Central here. Many of the people seriously involved in the Trade and/or are able to best help us will get tired of answering (or very leery about answering) and seeing these types of questions and just leave. It is my personal goal to not let that happen.

Bill

Thanks for the evenhanded response, Bill.

I understand y'all's reluctance to do much in the way of DIY'er question answering, what with not being able to see the problem first hand, liability, safety, etc. and because the "newbieness" of the questions can drive the more experienced types bonkers as they come up over and over and over... Especially stuff y'all covered in "Wiring 101" (or the equivalent) and thus "every electrician should know this by now" but isn't necessarily obvious to non-electricians.

I am a DIY type, but don't have a house to do any wiring or anything in right now so I am "harmless" as far as that goes, so y'all needn't worry.

I'll go back to lurking, I don't want to see this board dry up either.
-cajun
<lurk mode ON>

This type of wiring practice, needs
to be stamped out, to the max, guys.
I really do not care about DIY work,
provided that it is kept within reasonable
limits.
Of all the DIY work, that I have certified,
I think that I have had one (1) socket-
outlet incorrectly wired, over a spread of
1500 customers.

Trumpy,

A smart DIY-er should know when a job is beyond his capabilities and when it is appropriate to call in the (duly licenced)professional.

For instance, while I'm not afraid of replacing rotten cable inside walls and adding new sockets (as long as it's within circuit capacity), replacing cracked wall sockets, or broken switches, I will not try to undo the hack-job pictured above. Nor would I try to completly wire up a new house without help from a pro.

An even more morbid example. My aunt's apartment building in New York has rotten wires in the walls, coupled with a by-passed fuse box (no protection), surface-mount zip-cord (plug one end of the cord into an outlet and staple it along the wall) extension sockets, rusting boxes, etc.

Her landlord is a slumlord who has refused to fix this crap up.

I found out how bad the wiring was when replacing a worn-out, ancient wall socket (the plug pins literally slipped out of the holes) took about a day's work trying not to further crumble the perished insulation and not letting the box (which had come loose from the studs) fall into the void behind the plaster & lath!!

The building as it is is a firetrap, the owner refuses to fix it...and if I start poking around in that hell I'll probably be responsible for more bad than good.

I've seen stuff like that in NYC (Brooklyn, Coney Island area)
Zip cord stapled to the walls, duplex receptacles extended to 12 outlets by the ingenious use of adaptors, 3way extension cords and power strips,.. The ground got lost somewhere... I wasn't able to get further into that mess, so I don't know what was hidden behind. All light switches were worn out, and in the room I was living in there was one single duplex receptacle. In the bathroom there were none at all, so I had to plug my hairdryer (1200w) into the mess described above.
I also remember rusty and broken conduits with stalactites hanging down at deKalb Avenue D train stop before and during renovation.
My worst memories of living in NYC.