ECN Forum
Posted By: Admin 2 Many Meters - 06/14/01 04:00 AM
[Linked Image]
Quote

The owner here wanted a price to add another 400 A meter & main to this service. When I told him he was in for some more work than that, (count 7 already) he became somewhat upset. Seems another "electrician" had just left after telling him he could "cut in" another.... right into the front of the utility pull box / landing lugs.(???) The customer thinks I'm full of it. (Like that clearance?)
I'm still laughing.

Electure


[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 06-14-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/14/01 10:10 AM
electure,
is the box to the left a main disco?
Posted By: electure Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/14/01 11:56 AM
No, there is no main disconnect! That's the utility pull section. They'll have a can of worms opened soon. There are 3 buildings like this, each with 7 services.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 06-14-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/15/01 12:22 AM
7????

seven???

as in the # after 6 ?

how could this be energized in the 1st place?
[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 06-14-2001).]
Posted By: electure Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/15/01 11:23 AM
Yesiree, 7 as in 7. That's the #. Our price will include a Main switch, which will probably give the customer a coronary. I don't know how they got these things bought off, maybe the inspector's dog ate Article 230 from his book. I'll bet that the planner now, 30 yrs later, has a different view. (I still have the mental pic of the other guy, tracing around a 3 lb coffee can lid, and whipping out a jigsaw to cut a hole in the front of that pullsection for his new meter)...I'm still laughing.
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/15/01 11:58 AM
I don't think that there is a violation here. 230-40 exception #1 permits one set of service entrance conductors for each occupancy. 230-71(a) permits 6 disconnects for each set of service entrance conductors.
Don(resqcapt19)
Posted By: sparky Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/15/01 09:34 PM
would you guys be willing to get into 230-40, all the exceptions inparticular, a bit more ????
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/15/01 10:31 PM
Quote
I don't think that there is a violation here.

Other than the working clearances, I'll assume!! [Linked Image]
Posted By: electure Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/16/01 01:27 AM
. 230-40,ex1 Service is 120/208
. " " ex2 Doesn't apply
. " " ex3 Doesn't apply
. " " ex4 Doesn't apply
. " " ex5 Doesn't apply
Ooops, I shouldn't have been in a '99 book. (There's a change) I still don't buy it, I believe the service point is at the landing lugs in the utility pullsection. From there the service entrance conductors can only have 6 disconnects.



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 06-15-2001).]
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/16/01 03:24 AM
Electure
Quote
230-40: Exception No. 1: Buildings with one or more than one occupancy shall be permitted to have one set of service-entrance conductors for each class of service run to each occupancy or group of occupancies.

Each occupancy can have its own set of service conductors. If an occupancy requires more than one class of service it is permitted to have a set of service entrance conductors for ecah class of service. 240-71(a) says that each set of service conductors permitted by 240-30 Ex.#1 shall be permitted to have six disconnect switches. I'm assuming that each meter serves a seperate occupancy.

Sparky66,
Yes, I agree that there is a 110-26 violation here.

don(resqcapt19)
Posted By: Anonymous Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/16/01 03:37 AM
>I believe the service point is at the landing lugs in the utility pullsection.
A lot hinges on whether that is true.

How do you know that SE cable lands in the pull box?

Why do you believe that the service point is other than at the meter?
Posted By: electure Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/16/01 01:52 PM
Don,
Yes each occupancy can have its own set of service conductors (but doesn't necessarily have to) This particular one has 2 parallel 750 Al from the load side of the landing lugs to a modular type bus which isn't visible in the pic (sorry), not individual sets of conductors to each meter location.
DSpark,
You're right the whole enchilada hinges on what point we consider the SE conductors to begin. Is it possible that this interpretation varies geographically? Our utility (SCE) and inspectors do require a main disco ahead of any more than 6 meters.
At the landing lugs, the utility's engineering, responsibility, and conductor sizing stops. The conductors beyond this point must be sized per NEC.Is there a reason for this other than their being the SE conductors?
Unless part of a listed assembly, each service requires its own GEC. This assembly was designed for 6 meters, not 7 or 8, and has only 1 GEC. (Is this not a violation?)
This discussion has gotten me to thinking, though, that if we were to remove the added meter from the module(probably a violation in itself), pipe it as well as the new 400 to the pull section, provide them with their own SE conductors from the landing lugs and their own GECs then a main switch wouldn't be required, unless by Edison. Thanks, guys!
(Gee, and to think this all started from my humoring at seeing where the competition drew a circle with a pencil on the pull section. I'm still laughing, but I want out of this industrial complex real bad)






[This message has been edited by electure (edited 06-16-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/16/01 07:08 PM
some of my handbook pix shows the utility drop or lateral divided by 4, then each ends in 6 meters.
a firewall is mentioned, but there could be, if i'm reading this right, 20 or 30 meters fairly close to each other, no disco's ..
i find this confusing



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 06-16-2001).]
Posted By: electure Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/17/01 03:54 PM
I'll try to explain that if I can.(If you've got a few extra hours) I realize that I've been rambling in the last posts. (Caps are just for emphasis, I'm not yelling).
From the utility to the point of attachment
will be considered as the service DROP. This will be then connected to the service ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS. You can have UP TO as many SETS of service entrance conductors as you have occupancies (per 230-40 ex1) This is why there are 4 SETS OF SE CONDUCTORS connected to 1 service DROP in your pic. It's more practical to divide the metering and service disconnects into GROUPS of 6 rather than run 24 sets of SE conductors with 24 weatherheads (although technically you could do this). 6 is the maximum # of discos allowed PER SET of SE conductors, so 24 is the max for your 4 SETS. If, instead, one was to use a main switch (or up to 6) between the drop and the meter/disco, one set of SE conductors would be allowed to feed as many meters/discos as needed, because there would be a maximum of 6 operations needed to deenergize all of them.
In my particular case, 1 set of SE conductors was tapped from the LATERAL at the TERMINAL BOX (pull section), and 7 meters/discos were then put on this 1 set of SE conductors. This is a violation. If the 7th, however, is removed from this set of SE conductors, and is provided with a new set of SE conductors,tapped at the TERMINAL box, it (and up to 5 more on the new set) will be compliant. This very simple fix didn't occur to me until this discussion, I intended to install a main switch to cover all 7. The 8th meter could be installed on the same set of SE conductors as #7, but the unit is located the other direction from the TERMINAL BOX, so would be provided with another set of SE conductors of its own, tapped at the TERMINAL BOX, just to simplify things (5 more meters/discos could also be put on this set of SE conductors). I'm sure not gonna cut a hole in the front of the darn TERMINAL BOX for another meter ring, though (where was he gonna put the CT's and disco?)... and I'm STILL laughing..Thanks again, guys.
Posted By: sparky Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/17/01 09:21 PM
Electure,
Thank you for the details here. somewhere back in my apprenticeship i was told of the 'six switch' rule.
Where this # came from is debatable, however it was passingly accepted that six would be the max # in an emergency, say the building is on fire and the fire department has responded.
Would'nt the exceptions trash this theory?

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 06-17-2001).]
Posted By: electure Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/18/01 02:36 AM
Why 6? Why not 4, 5, 7?? I've wondered this myself, and was told, like you were, that it was for the FD. And yes, you're sure right 230-40 ex1 does seem to undo any good that was ever intended.
Posted By: ampznvoltz Re: 2 Many Meters - 06/21/01 11:27 PM
Well the first thing they could do is to CUT DOWN THOSE POLES.
© ECN Electrical Forums