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Posted By: electure There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/07/05 10:27 PM
from NORCAL

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

He can explain what's going on here.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 01:47 AM
What's happening here Rollie?. [Linked Image]
Posted By: sierra electrician Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 03:26 AM
Is that Rigid pipe from the slab to the panel? With a PVC FA fitting on top?

[This message has been edited by sierra electrician (edited 09-07-2005).]
Posted By: NORCAL Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 04:22 AM
YUP. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 09:37 AM
Is there any Damp-proof-course under that Bottom plate?.
Posted By: georgestolz Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 12:11 PM
Uh...

Where are the walls? Doesn't 110.11 apply here? [Linked Image]
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Equipment identified only as 'dry locations,' 'Type 1,' or 'indoor use only' shall be protected against permanent damage from the weather during construction.

I like the romex supporting everything (300.11(C)) going into that one SE connector (110.3(B), 312.5(C)) too, that's nice.
Posted By: HighPotter Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 12:41 PM
x

[This message has been edited by HighPotter (edited 09-08-2005).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 02:59 PM
So is this what passes for house construction in the USA these days?

Little houses of ticky-tacky and match-sticks.

There's something to be said for the love affair that we Latin Americans have for poured concrete, block and brick. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 06:22 PM
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There's something to be said for the love affair that we Latin Americans have for poured concrete, block and brick.
Definitely!!!
In Europe there's a running joke saying US houses are cardboard boxes... your description is only much more graphic!
Nothing said against the fine old NY brownstones or Chicago brick bungalows... lovely houses! The old Brooklyn brick multi-family I once lived in would have been quite nice too had it been less neglected... and ok, the layout was a bit weird too.
Posted By: NORCAL Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 07:15 PM
I will try to get more pics before they lath it for stucco,I wanted to get some comments on this before I commented.
Posted By: BElder Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 08:33 PM
Looks pretty typical for that town & you ask any of the electritions who install this they will say there is nothing wrong with bundling wires like that!!!
& that's when I bring up 2002 NEC 312.5(C)
LOL
Oh you #&*%$# Inspector!!!



[This message has been edited by BElder (edited 09-28-2005).]
Posted By: electure Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/08/05 10:29 PM
George, What weather? This is California. They'll be done before any weather takes its toll.


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There's something to be said for the love affair that we Latin Americans have for poured concrete, block and brick.

Sven, I recently had to drill a 2" hole in a concrete tilt up building South of the border. I drilled a 1/4" hole as a pilot and picked the rest of it out with a screwdriver. My fellow worker enlarged a 3/4" hole to fit 1" EMT by driving a piece of scrap 1" conduit through the 6" wall with his 16 ounce hammer. It took less than a minute. They need to get the aggregate/cement/sand ratios down a little better before you guy's criticism has much validity [Linked Image]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/09/05 04:13 PM
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They need to get the aggregate/cement/sand ratios down a little better before you guy's criticism has much validity

Hmmm....I've heard of cases like that.

What I've been told is that it's the unscrupulous masons skimping on the cement.

What happens is they skim off cement and replace it with more sand in the mix than normal. What do they do with the cement they swiped? Sell it, of course! [Linked Image]

So that nice sidewalk or concrete wall starts crumbling after a few months of being exposed to rain and general wear and tear.

It's something to be careful about -- I'm sure that happens all over the world. I've seen some sidewalks here in New York City that appear to start crumbling a few months after they've been poured.....hmmm....
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/09/05 05:36 PM
You wouldn't hanker so much for solid construction if your missus decided she wanted another bloody doorway through 2'6" of granite. I'd give my eye teeth for a good old section of stud with sheetrock!

Alan
Posted By: pauluk Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/09/05 07:17 PM
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My fellow worker enlarged a 3/4" hole to fit 1" EMT by driving a piece of scrap 1" conduit through the 6" wall with his 16 ounce hammer.

We have a construction block here which goes by the trade-name of Thermalite. It's a very lightweight and low density block which is commonly used for the inside half of a cavity wall. You could pretty much just put your conduit up to it with no pilot hole and bash it through like that.

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I'd give my eye teeth for a good old section of stud with sheetrock!

I like wood frame construction too, as it makes evertything so much easier.

If granite it tough to get through, how about those crumbling old Victorian redbrick houses where the wall only has to see you coming at it with a drill bit, says "I surrender," and falls into a heap of dust at your feet?

I've fitted boxes, thought they were secure, only to have a whole section of brick fall out the moment I turn away. [Linked Image]

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In Europe there's a running joke saying US houses are cardboard boxes...

Fair's fair I suppose. Americans could make the same criticism of European cars..... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/09/05 11:10 PM
Paul, there's another type of soft red Victorian brick seen in the UK, where the grog was mixed with small quartz pebbles. Not many in each brick, but ALWAYS one just where you wanted to drill a hole for a plug!

Vernacular construction techniques varied with the local availability of materials, which is why we have such a wide variety of build methods in the world. You have to admit that a timber-frame house building site is much cleaner than the usual UK 'wet trades' method with mortar and bricks/blocks and the rattle of the Mixer. These hell-holes usually resemble the Battle of the Somme, and pity any poor bugger wanting a serious garden afterwards, with all the topsoil stolen and replaced with a mixture of soggy clay and Evo-Stik. My late sister moved into a new house in the sixties and my brother-in-law unearthered a complete Dumper Truck buried in the back garden, minus it's engine!

Alan

PS. have you ever seen 'The Plank', a no- dialog/sound effects film by Ronnie Barker?
Says it all about Brit building sites.



[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 09-09-2005).]
Posted By: electure Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/10/05 12:01 AM
Here's another shot...of the other side of the service.
(It looks to me like this is a garage)

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image] Somehow, I just can't get over the mental idea of a guy holding an umbrella over a roll of romex so it won't be harmed by Ultraviolet...ala Michael Jackson [Linked Image]

edited for goof on my part

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 09-09-2005).]
Posted By: NORCAL Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/10/05 12:37 AM
It is a garage.
Posted By: pauluk Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/10/05 03:23 PM
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PS. have you ever seen 'The Plank', a no- dialog/sound effects film by Ronnie Barker?
Says it all about Brit building sites.

Yep, seen it! [Linked Image] I think Eric Sykes was in it too, wasn't he?

There's another movie from the same era in which Ronnie Barker plays the jack-of-all-trades builder charged with renovating an old country cottage (I think it was called "Father Came Too," but it certainly had James Robertson Justice in it as well).

There are some great electrical moments in the film, such as when Ronnie gets to grips with an old fusebox:

"There's nothing wrong with these old fuse boxes just so long as you know what you're doing."

(Opens door, starts pulling on a cable, BANG!, FLASH!, slams door shut quickly.)

"You know the touble with these old fuse boxes is that they're never any good!" [Linked Image]

With apologies to all for going off on a tangent.....


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-10-2005).]
Posted By: Tesla Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/11/05 04:57 PM
What's up with all of the cripple studs?

What's up with GRC not being bonded to the panel? I assume that the rigid is per PG&E 'Green Book' specifications -- but our man is attempting to save on a bonding bushing.

My blind eyes can't see the Ufer. It is in there?

I thought that Romex required support within 12" of any box or panel entry. ( 8" to keep my AHJ happy ) I can't see any listed method of support for these cables.

Out my way my AHJ insists on a courtesy panel stub out of 3/4"; I see no courtesy here.

This looks like pure California.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/11/05 06:03 PM
Tesla, good point. The vertical studs look like they have a slenderness ratio approaching 50-1 (2" in 8'). Good puff of wind and that roof will put a heck of a buckling load on the walls. Is this 'balloon framing' as mentioned in another post, relying on the inner and outer sheathing for strength?

Alan
Posted By: stamcon Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/11/05 06:23 PM
Alan, this is not balloon framing. With balloon framing, the studs run continuously up 2 or 3 three stories, with the 2nd and 3rd floor joists resting on a ribbon that is rabbetted into the studs. Balloon framing was more of an "east coast" framing method. Here in the west, we "platform frame", with individual studs running from floor to ceiling on each floor level.

Tesla, in picture #1, there is a single gang plaster ring below the panel. It looks like there is rebar bent over to the ring for the UFER connection.

steve

[This message has been edited by stamcon (edited 09-11-2005).]
Posted By: e57 Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/12/05 06:51 AM
Alan, this is an un-finished version of "platform framing", balloon framing's younger wiser brother. [Linked Image] (It is missing fire blocking at the mid-point of the wall.)

(For our European friends... Not sure if this type of framing is popular there.) It is based on the balloon framing technique, except it stops at each floor with a top plate, and rim joist for each floor, then starts again on the next floor. The floor and roof joists sit on top of the top plate, and nailed to the rim joist. And correct, still is not at full strength until the walls are complete. The material, and method of attatchment will determine its final shear strength. Like the semi-finished example in the backround of pic #1.

Where I am in earthquake country, certain walls at engineered to maximize that shear value. "Shear walls" usually have simular 16" on center 2x4 or 2x6 framing, then have cross grained multi-ply plywood nailed in a tight pattern on the edges, and each stud with 10d nails, on one side or both. Often they will have hold-down brackets and those are bolted to the top, and bottom plates though to the foundation. And on regular walls from the foundation, the sill plate is bolted down, as shown in pic #2.

Heres a nice animation describing shear wall basics. (wait, it takes a bit to start.) http://www.pbcgov.com/pubsafety/eoc/HowTos/walls.htm

Stamcom, its not so much an east west thing, more to do with the era of development. Many buldings in the west were balloon framed before 1920. Like much of San Francisco and the Bay Area. Even some of the older Vic's, and Ed's in and around San Diego and Coronado. (What are left of them)

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 09-12-2005).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/12/05 03:53 PM
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What happens is they skim off cement and replace it with more sand in the mix than normal.

A neighbor told us of the "farmer's mix concrete" once... usually it's cement and sand 1:3, farmer's mix is 1:10...
I just had to hack a door into a 12" brick wall and I _still_ prefer brick construction over wood frame!
Posted By: NORCAL Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/13/05 05:45 AM
Some of my comments,the 1st thing that caught my eye was, that PVC TA on steel pipe,and 2nd was the cheesy way of "supporting" the bundle of NM cables,thought it would make a good photo.

Another comment made here was about the bundling of the cables,with the design of those panels,1/2 being used for metering,that does not leave much space for KOs (approx. 3 1/2" x7")so, its a common practice to bundle it that way, although as long as inspectors allow it it will continue.
Posted By: yaktx Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/15/05 02:25 AM
How balloon framing got its name:

In the early 19th century, two technological developments made it possible to frame houses with thin dimensional lumber, rather than the enormous timbers that had been used previously in Europe since ancient times.

Sawmills, powered by either water or steam, facilitated the economical cutting of small dimensional lumber, beginning in the late 18th century.

Factories began mass-producing nails, which, when handmade, were too expensive to use in framing (they were used for flooring and siding, generally). If nails are not available for framing, joints have to be pegged mortise-and-tenon, which is highly labor-intensive. This tends to encourage framing with large timbers, posts being set at wide intervals.

When old-school carpenters watched new 2x4 framed buildings going up in 1830s Chicago, they haughtily pronounced them too flimsy to last, saying they would blow away like a balloon in the first strong wind. They were wrong, of course, but the name stuck.

I worked on a 1915 balloon frame house last week, upgraded the service and added some appliance circuits. They are a breeze to fish wires in, since there is no top or bottom plate. The studs are nailed to a beam below the floor, and the floor joists are nailed to the studs some distance above. A piece of string and a weight are literally all you need for a 1-story house, which this one was. I recently acquired a 1915 Terrell Croft book on wiring finished buildings (that meant previously unwired, back then). Several ingenious techniques are illustrated for fishing between floors and walls, techniques which are largely forgotten today since they do not work with platform framing.
Posted By: pauluk Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/17/05 04:11 PM
Great historical background. It's always fascinating to find out how terms originated.
Posted By: e57 Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/17/05 11:55 PM
"Factories began mass-producing nails, which, when handmade, were too expensive to use in framing" One more item on that... Nails were highly taxed, and made in countries like England! Just another, later "Tea Party."
Posted By: pauluk Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/19/05 11:46 AM
Did somebody say tea party? I think we're well overdue for one! [Linked Image]

There's only standard VAT (sales tax) on nails now so far as I'm aware. That's bad enough though: 17.5%.
Posted By: gideonr Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/19/05 07:43 PM
Except on new build, Paul. You knew that, didn't you?
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/19/05 09:59 PM
Reasons for the French to be revolting? :-
Unfair tax on tea may have triggered the "little local difficulty" between the US and Britain, how about this little tale?-
In 1748 the French State imposed a tax of 58 livres on a 3 livre box of salt! Only the poor paid taxes, the middle classes and the rich paid absolutely nothing. Smuggling became rife and to halt it, Louis, the Sun King ordered draconian punishments. Caught near Mayenne with a bag of salt, Sébastien Paturel, a 20 year old native of my commune ( pop 290), was convicted and sentenced to 3 years hard labor. Branded with a red-hot iron on his forehead, he was force-marched rivetted in heavy chains and weights to Marseilles, where he endured a horrific period in the galleys as an oarsmen, then was shipped to a grim prison at Brest where the work was de-barnacling ships bottoms. Rebranded with "liberté", he was eventually released in 1751 and walked home. He married in 1753 at our church, and had several children. He died in 1790 aged 62. He has descendants. For his story in full, (unfortunately in French), Google 'Images' then Sebastien Paturel and click on a one of the paturel pics.
I researched this after finding a peculier chain and a crude iron weight at a junk sale, and my good friend Georges pointed me in the right direction....
Sobering reading when put in context to VAT on nails!
Oh, and my house is on the 200 year old map!


Alan
Posted By: pauluk Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/21/05 09:36 PM
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Except on new build, Paul. You knew that, didn't you?

Yep. Or if it's for business use and you're a VAT-registered business, of course, in which case you claim the tax back (but charge it your customer if you're selling the nails on to him).

Alan,

58 livres on a 3 livre item? Sounds like British gasoline...... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 09/22/05 04:20 AM
Paul, the irony is that Louis eventually got himself in an immense financial black hole by secretly funding the American Revolution! Since the poor were already taxed to the point of starvation, he asked the rich and the bourgeois to contribute a small amount in tax. It was their violent protests against being taxed, and not that of the poor, which triggered the revolution.
As to gasoline, did you know that a petrol station owner has to pay all the VAT on fuel when it's delivered, not after it's sold? A friend of mine used to pay out over £15,000 in VAT before he sold one gallon. When he tried to argue the unfairness of this, the Waffen SS VAT Squad, ( Not a joke, these people really do have more power than the Gestapo had ), arrived at his premises and demanded immediate payment or they would sequester all his trucks, cars, works tools and the contents of his auto-trade shop. Needless to say, small operators went out of the petrol trade PDQ.

Alan
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 03/22/07 10:00 PM
Bumping this one up...

Sven:
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So is this what passes for house construction in the USA these days?

Little houses of ticky-tacky and match-sticks.
Tex:
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In Europe there's a running joke saying US houses are cardboard boxes...
Hey, them's fightin' words! laugh

Seriously, houses these days made of 'Ticky Tacky,' such as the one in Rollie's photos might blow down in ten years due to the "Get it done NOW NOW NOW!" Mentality, but old 'Ticky Tacky' houses (read: 'Levittown,' and Fairless Hills Pre-fabs) will probably last forever, due to the workers actually liking their jobs with Levitt.


Ian A.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 03/23/07 05:47 AM
Alan,
I worked for a Petro-Chem company doing Hazardous Area work (mainly petrol pump work and Instrinically Safe controls).
I can back up what you say, the owners of tanks in the ground (the Fuel Companies)would charge anyone that needed maintenance or upgrade work at the rate of 300% of the time it took me to do the job.
Little country towns here have had to dig up their tanks because they just cannot afford the maintenance or whatever, this is a real smack in the face for people that depend on a fuel supply.
I lasted 6 months at that job, it was so depressing hearing the tales of owners being screwed by a company that makes billions (not millions).
Posted By: pauluk Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 03/23/07 12:34 PM
Quote
but old 'Ticky Tacky' houses (read: Levittown) will probably last forever
Like some of the pre-fabs erected here during the post-WWII housing shortage. They were designed to be cheap, quick to erect, and intended to last for 10 years. Many are still in use and their owners love them.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 03/23/07 01:52 PM
Edit: bad angle in the one photo, and my comments were in err. Nevermind!

Also, firefighters HATE balloon frame, I-joists and plate-joined wood trusses. (Though, as an engineer, I love 'em!)
Posted By: mikesh Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 03/23/07 04:37 PM
I did not see any comments about the number of cable running through 1 connector. Is this common practice? I had a guy here from Arizona that took a short piece of 2" pvc from the top of the panel up to the joist space and just ran all the home runs in a bundle into the panel. It is required here to install a connector for each cable entering the panel. but typically yyou can put two 2 wire cables through 1 Loomex connector 4040. or one 3 wire and one 2 wire.
Dryer and range cable would be alone in their connectors. A bug bundle of cables into a panel will not be secure and any stress on the cable would transfer to the terminals. I have seen several examples of this from photos posted from the US but very little or any comment on the practice. Is it code compliant in the NEC? I don't think it should be if it is.
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 03/23/07 07:31 PM
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Like some of the pre-fabs erected here during the post-WWII housing shortage. They were designed to be cheap, quick to erect, and intended to last for 10 years. Many are still in use and their owners love them.
That brings me to Fairless Hills. 4000 little (960 sq ft) pre-fab houses. Carpenters (my late great-uncle comes to mind) said they would blow away in the first good wind. If only he was still here today to pay off that $25 bet... (Hmm, with interest, inflation... We're moving to the Gates! laugh )

I've since edited my last post about Fairless Hills, including them with L-town.

Ian A.
Posted By: sparktrician_51 Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 05/05/07 06:07 AM
New guy on the block here, have lurked and read for a year or so, just wanted to add my .02 ..... I have wired houses in SOCAL, Denver, St Louis and most recently Oklahoma. I actually wired a bunnch in SOCAL that looked just like the one pictured wouldnt happen to be a KB build would it?? Bundling wires through a TA is common and encouraged in Cali and Colorado, forbidden in St Louis, and "not encouraged" in Oklahoma. St Louis goes so far as to ban multiple wires through any KO or even a hole drilled in a 2x4. Makes the top plate look like swiss cheese when feeding all home runs into the panel.
Posted By: e57 Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 05/05/07 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by sparktrician_51
St Louis goes so far as to ban multiple wires through any KO or even a hole drilled in a 2x4. Makes the top plate look like swiss cheese when feeding all home runs into the panel.
Used to be one cable per hole here too, but now allowed two... Depending on the hole, the cable and they need to be pulled together at the same time.
Posted By: Samurai Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 05/07/07 03:41 AM
(among the other dishaps mentioned above) I think the romex "support" is only jacketing - thats fine to avoid induction - but bundling all of them in it is clearly way wrong.
training, training, training
Posted By: NORCAL Re: There Goes the Neighborhood - 05/07/07 12:27 PM
The way those panels are built, you have NO choice but to bundle,unless only running a limited number of circuits,my biggest gripe was w/ the rigid feeding the panel as its isolated/unbonded from panel because installer used a MA and a TA instead of locknuts to bring it into the panel.(The conduit was just shoved into the PVC fittings).
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