Sent by Roger:


This is a service for an outdoor class room at an elementary school.





The service was built prior to the viewing pond being dug.

This area around the pond will be landscaped as a nature teaching area, meaning people will be in this damp fertilized (salted) area at any givin time.

Now along with the obvious clearance violation, if there was an incident of the POCO neutral being lost, I see an extremely dangerous situation with the voltage
on the driven ground.

What do you think?

Sparky, agree in the most part. The transformer is 100 yards at least, but in this event, any 110v circuit would be returning to the GEC which most likely would not have the impedence to open any OCPD. The ground being fertilized may help or create more of a hazzard (depending on the circuit ampacity) with this happening.
Wouldn't you think 110.3(A)(8) need to be considered closely by the installers and the AHJ?

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 05-28-2002).]

Roger;
i do agree that better planning would have made for more practical safeguarding here.
Simply to flip up the nema 3r panel cover may topple one into the pond.
Myself, i'd insist on backfill, or at least some sort of platform to 110.26's spec's...

...did the AHJ see this??

Sparky, that's the kicker. I notified the inspector three weeks ago. This may be a moot point in the end. He may make them move this before it's over. But in the city I primarily work in, this would have been red tagged immediatly per 110(26). I know there is no true violation to the potential problem of a lost neutral, but in any situation where there would be children, or anyone for that matter, I think I would place this service in a more remote location. Thanks for your response.

Roger

Roger: Any updates on this situation yet?

Maybe the AHJ approved of the installation before the ground was dug out? When AHJ's go out to a site, we don't always know what is going to happen after we leave. Just like the AHJ can not go back into a house that has a certificate of occupancy. We are only allowed to inspect new construction.

Joe, thank you for asking. About a week after we posted this, I came home and notice the cut out had been pulled.

I figured the inspector had made a repeat visit and had this corrected. A week after that I noticed the cut out was connected again. I went and looked and they had filled rock in front of the panel.

I thought this was a joke, but if the AHJ OK'd this what the heck.

Harold, I can understand an inspector not being able to go back into a home, but on public property he would be allowed to cite a violation at any time. He would have a vested intrest to do so.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 08-18-2002).]

Here's an updated picture sent from Roger:

Joe;
I know it's bad to make light of a very dangerous situation such as this...but...
I guess this is where you're supposed to plug in that "floating" duplex receptacle extension cord from your other post...

Mike (mamills)

Hey Mike:


YES, I did go after that funny cord and when I returned this is what I found, the hard hat! Has anyone seen Roger? Or did the AHJ, fall into the water!

Now we have a problem -- a missing person!

Joe, When you said you were going to get your cord, I high tailed it. (I've seen your cord)

I did see the meter reader heading to the the pond though.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen a bill lately.

Roger

I'm want to make sure I have this straight. It's not proper to call a boat floor "finished grade"?

Joe: Here are some additional examples of the electrical work being done at the elementary school "outdoor classroom".

The extension cord (to the pump) was there last weekend, and this week, where we found it buried.

Compared to the last photo's above, the water level continues to rise and the
service may be floating in the pond before long!

PS: My hard hat floated away!

Roger

Roger:
A couple of questions, if I may: 1) What does this service provide power for... and 2) Is the water level getting closer to the service?

It looks like they will need a boat before too long. Why on earth would any AHJ approve something like this with virtually no working space in front of it?

Mike (mamills)

Mike,

The water level is rising and will almost touch the 4x4 under the panel before the pond reaches it's overflow.

This is a 100 amp service, and as of now, is feeding a submersible pump at one end of the pond which pumps water to the waterfall at the other end. The pump is switched on by plugging an extension cord (which was buried)into the GFI that can be seen under the panel.

They have built an outdoor classroom about 150' from the pond, as well as a nature trail. I have a feeling this service will eventually be serving more than one receptacle. If there was not more planned for the service, they could have run a receptacle circuit underground from the school building when they ran the water to the pond.

As to why the AHJ is ignoring the situation, I am not sure. As stated earlier, the AHJ, as well as the Principal of the school, have been contacted.

I think this work, other than the service, is being done by volunteers. This is another case of well-meaning DIY'ers not knowing the dangers.

Roger

hi joe, i am not sure what you mean by a POCO neutral, and the dangerous situation with the voltage on the driven ground.

Daniel

The first message was posted on behalf of Roger, so that I could upload his pictures.

Your question concering the POCO comment will probablly catch his eye when he signs on again.

You can add to the subject by giving us your interpretation of the potential hazards often associated with open, or loose neutrals.

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-05-2002).]

First of all, after we finally got the attention of the principal he contacted me and I explained the danger and the code violations.

He followed up by calling me again to tell me they were having it moved. He also asked me to help in locating where this should be, which I did.

They have had the POCO pull the fuse and have started the process.

Daniel, POCO is for power company.

Now to the danger of loosing a service neutral.

The made electrode (ground rod) would carry the circuit voltage to the ground at the immediate location. (The meter and panel would also be charged) This voltage would be at or near 120v depending on the drop across the load.

Being that the ground surface in this case could be wet and fertilized, the voltage gradient could extend quite aways at dangerous levels before dispersing to a safe level.
Anyone contacting something with a potential difference would be in danger.

Roger

thanks for the reply Roger and Joe. i now understand the potential hazards of a open neutral. i read more about this topic, it is simular to the topic " IS THERE A SHOCK HAZARD HERE" in this forum. thanks again for the imformation...


dan