What New (2002 NEC) and existing rules are being violated here?

Hello from Wharton, TX. I must admit to being nervous about this being my first post. I have been looking at ECN for some time now and have found it fascinating. Unfortunately, I am not in the electrical profession (I am an Audio Visual Coordinator at a local Community College), but I am very interested in this field and have learned a lot from this website.
Regarding the photo, and not knowing any more than I do, the first problem that seems to stick out in my mind are the two white wires under the single lug, which I know is a violation. What is curious is the fact that this was unnecessary, given the large number of empty lugs nearby.

The new 2002 NEC rule is 408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations.

Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.


[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 11-26-2002).]

Hello,

Don't be nervous about jumping in. Everyone here is friendly and willing to answer any questions they can. (And I'm a foreigner who has asked some questions that might be obvious to the others!)

Joe,

What's the busbar on the right with no connections to it? Is it just an extra neutral bar?

Paul,

That looks like another Neutral bar. It's the one that a thoughtful Electrician would have used first Filling the upper bar often blocks or makes terminating more difficult on the lower one when things start getting crowded.

Bill

Thanks Bill.

I thought it most likely was another neutral bar. We just seldom have two separate neutral busbars in panels here, unless it's a split panel with different mains.

The two larger neutrals look as though they were installed after the smaller ones.

On both bars the unused terminals are in their factory positions, except for the bottom terminal on the left. It has been backed out as though the electrician planned to use it, but then didn't for some reason.

I suspect that the larger neutral which is doubled up with the small one was trimmed off too short to reach any of the higher terminals, and that there is something wrong with the bottom left terminal, stripped perhaps. Those aluminum neutral bars aren't the greatest.

The electrician should have tied it to the bar on the right, but that would have been a little awkward given that the other neutrals were already installed on the left bar.

Regards,
Brian

When I make up a Panel with stacked Buses for the Grounded Conductors [such as this Panel - which looks like a Square D NQOx type Panel to me..], I will land the Conductors on the other Bus, just to keep the "First" Bus available for the next guy. Quite the opposite of what is shown in this image.

That way, the Conductors can be landed without having to weave them under the first Bus, plus it just seems like a nice thing to do.

Anyone else do this???

P.S. Unless someone is holding a gun to my head, I would not double-up conductors like this, when there's so many free landings available!!!

Mamills,

Welcome aboard!!!
Feel free to contribute anything you can - we all benifit from each other.
You have found a site with a vast amount of information and people who love answering questions! It just might take a few days to get used to the "ECN Slang", or the "Inside Jokes" we use here


Scott SET

I agree looks like a QO. The upper two bars are factory. The lower was added. Why?

The real problem here is the inconcideration
for future electricians and common sense.I come across this stuff all the time and its sometimes IMPOSSIBLE ti install the neutral in the proper place because there is an empty neutral bar covered with the original neutrals thus making it easier to double up the originals than try to get to the empty lugs.. The codebook should include this..

ITS A SUBPANEL....

I have a question about the smaller ground buss at the back. Wouldn't it have made for a "cleaner" installation if the ends of the ground wires were cut off close to the point where they extend past the buss screw? Wire ends are kinda sharp and could bite into the insulation of the black ungrounded conductors.
Since this panel has a separate ground buss, could this panel possibly be used in a mobile home?
Thanks for your kind words of welcome!!

Mike (mamills)

Hi, Scott. I absolutely agree with you about using the lower buss first. I guess it's more a matter of courtesy than anything else.
It seems that an electrical panel is always a "work in progress".

Mike (mamills)

"work in progress".

A fairly accurate desrciption there Mike...


PS, grab a mit & jump in....

manufactures take note.... need bigger neutral bars........

i do work for a commercial/residential out-door lighting co., which means that i'm usually the last guy in any panel...believe me, you guys are all exceptions. needle & thread, needle & thread.

Joe,

I have been failing jobs for this under 110-3. The job has to be installed as per the manufactures instructions. Most manufactures only allow 1 neutral wire per terminal. I am glad that it is finally written under another code section that can be written up for. I once looked inside an old service panel and wondered who left a small red light on inside this panel. Imagine my surprise when I found out that the red light was really a neutral conductor glowing red hot. It was doubled up under a scrw terminal and they were both very loose.

Harold

I dont buy that argument. One neutral could be just as loose as two. Many manufacturers now allow you two terminate two, and some three, conductors under one terminal. In my 15 years in the business I have not seen one problem caused by more than one conductor under a terminal. I challenge the powers that be to actually count the termination points in a panel.
Scott

Are you sure? Are you thinking about the equipment grounding conductors? Please open the door on a panelboard and see where not more than one "grounded conductor (neutral is permitted to be terminated under one screw on any grounded conductor terminal bar.

I agree with Harold 100%



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 11-26-2002).]

Scott,
The UL product standard for panelborads has not permitted more than one neutral under a single screw for a long time. It does still permit in some cases more than one EGC under the same screw, but not neutrals. The rule has been enforcable under 110-3(B) but was added in Article 408 to make it very clear and to make sure that more installers are aware of the requirement.
Don(resqcapt19)

So, what do you do when you need to add a cicuit to a panel and the neutral bar is completely jammed with wires? You double up, because 95% of the time replacing the neutral bar is out of the question. As long as the wires are both the same size, there should be no problem.

Of course, where there are plenty of empty lugs available, there is no reason to double up.

CT :
If the neutral bar is filled, why not add a small 'ground bar kit', and bond it to the old neutral buss ? Giving a few exta spaces for additional circuits.
I usually use Siemens and they used to give neutral buss on either side of their panels, I think there were 22 on the 20 space panels or a total of 42 neutral holes. On their specs in the panel they clearly say (1) neutral per terminal but egc's can be doubled up on and they left plenty of them to do it.
Friday I picked up a ' New' Siemens Panel which was their new version and they had cut the bus in half 14 on both sides now. I guess they thought the extra space was a waste, just wish they had left it alone. The old arrangement was much better.
-Mark

motor-T-

Thats an excellent idea. My comment was directed towards those situations when time and/or money are tight and the customer isn't willing to pay for the upgrade. I'm all for improving safety when it's practical. It would be nice to fix every violation we see but we also live in the real world...

Working in older panels that are totally filled can be a real nightmare somtimes.....

Panels that are in compliance with the UL product standard for Panelboards are required to have one neutral termination space for each breaker space. They are not required to have an EGC terminal bar and most of the time, in a new panel, where neutrals are doubled up, it is because the contractor used the neutral bar for EGCs. This in itself is not a violation at the service panel, but it becomes a violation when you double up a neutral.
Don(resqcapt19)

Wow,

I didn't mean to cause such a stir. However I thought that I was the only one who saw that on the label of the panel. Most contractors think that the label will allow 2 neutrals. There was an article in E.C.& M. and also in the IAEI magazine in which both magazines also say, 1 neutral per terminal. I am glad it is now written in the NEC. This way I have another code section with which to quote from.

Too bad I don't have a digital camera yet...
At least the wires are on the right bus; I recently found a sub-panel that had all the white wires going to the ground bus, while the neutral bus (which had a beautifully marked white feeder attached to it) was completely unused!

John,
Take a regular picture and then use a scanner to scan it in. If you do not have a scanner I am sure you know someone who does. I would like to see that.
Scott

Has anyone delt with a T&B no main panel yet if you use romex there is not enough termanals for ether the grounds or the neutrals after you split the two busses to isolate them as required, you have to add a ground buss kit which I think it should already have. to stop people from doing just this