ECN Forum
Is it legally possible in any way possible?

Someone I talked to says they know of a situation but is unsure of how it was done. Supposedly all parties involved knew what was going on.
"Legal," "get away with," and "right" are three very different things.

Ask yourself this: Is it OK for you to practice medicine or law using another persons' license? Drive? Buy a gun? Buy alcohol or tobacco? Write a check?

Why would and electrical license be any different?
Originally Posted by renosteinke
"Legal," "get away with," and "right" are three very different things.

Ask yourself this: Is it OK for you to practice medicine or law using another persons' license? Drive? Buy a gun? Buy alcohol or tobacco? Write a check?

Why would and electrical license be any different?


Yes, it seems like a no brainier.

Yet, here in Saskatchewan I know of a journeyman electrician who is employed full-time at a company and has a contractor's license. That is not supposed to be possible based on the rules governing who is allowed to have a contractor's license.

So how does he do it when no one else can? Apparently he found a legal loophole. I don't know the exact details but I've been told that he uses another electrician's license # on his permits. The other electrician supposedly has agreed to this practice. Is this true? I don't know. Which is why I've posed the question.
Rules only affect honest people.
Stateside, there are 'guys' who provide sealed permit applications to 'others' for a "fee".

Is it OK? NO!

Does it happen? YES!

Originally Posted by twh
Rules only affect honest people.


He's been working at both jobs for years. He doesn't do contractor work without permits - this I know to be fact.

Therefore, if his journeyman ticket # is listed at the place of business where he is an employee and he submits a different number with his permits as a contractor with his own business I would think that somebody somewhere would've raised a flag long ago. If this is not true, then how else could he be working both as a company employee and private contractor legally?
Sounds to me like his electric ticket is required for his job so he can not use for his contracting business. Therefore his contracting business "hires' another electrician to do the electrical work and he works for the other electrician when not at his full time job.
Originally Posted by jdevlin
Sounds to me like his electric ticket is required for his job so he can not use for his contracting business. Therefore his contracting business "hires' another electrician to do the electrical work and he works for the other electrician when not at his full time job.


It's my understanding that it's his own name on the permits but the other electrician's ticket #. Therefore I don't believe it's being presented like he's working for someone. The other electrician doesn't sound like he's even active in the business. If an inspector were on site then they wouldn't even see the other electrician. It's been this way for years. The only thing I can think of is a legal loophole that allows him to operate this way openly.
It's possible for a non-electrician to get a licence if he has an electrician provide a journeyman number. For example, a plumber can get a licence by hiring an electrician or by getting an electrician to provide a ticket number. It isn't a loophole. It's the way it's done. My company has a contractor's licence but it never even went to grade one, let alone trade school.
Originally Posted by twh
It's possible for a non-electrician to get a licence if he has an electrician provide a journeyman number. For example, a plumber can get a licence by hiring an electrician or by getting an electrician to provide a ticket number. It isn't a loophole. It's the way it's done. My company has a contractor's licence but it never even went to grade one, let alone trade school.



I do realize that somebody who is not a licensed electrician can have an electrical contract company BUT they still must have licensed electricians to do the work.

What I do not understand is how this individual can be working full-time at a company as a licensed electrician and do contractor work on the side - legally submitting permits under his name. If the truth is that he's using 2 different numbers to get around the rules regarding how electricians are allowed to work in Saskatchewan then it's got to be a loophole. If not, then why are so many other electricians I know scratching their heads wondering why they can't do the same?
Actually I don't think you even need licensed electricians to do the work. You only licensed electricians to be on staff.

Here are the requirements to be an elctrical contractor in Ontario. Note item #2.

Quote
Eligibility for an ECRA/ESA Electrical Contractor Licence

1 Must be at least 18 years of age
2 Be a Master Electrician, or employ at all times at least one Designated Master Electrician
3 Have a place of business in Ontario
4 Have public liability and property damage insurance coverage of at least $2,000,000
5 Be registered with the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board, if the applicant is required to register under the Work Place Safety and Insurance Act, 1997
6 Not be in default of filing a return with the Ministry of Revenue or of paying any tax, penalty or interest assessed under the Retail Sales Tax Act or the Corporations Tax Act, if applicable, for which payment arrangements have not been made
7 Not owe the ESA any money for which payments arrangements have not been made
Originally Posted by jdevlin
Eligibility for an ECRA/ESA Electrical Contractor Licence
2 Be a Master Electrician, or employ at all times at least one Designated Master Electrician


My interpretation of that is you need a Master Electrician on staff in order to do the work. Otherwise, who would pull the permit?
To be a licensed electrical contractor in Ontario, the company needs to have a designated "Master Electrician".
The Master Electrician does NOT need to be a licensed electrician. For example an electrical engineer can receive the designation of Master Electrician. However the Master Electrician can only perform work if they are a licensed electrician. The Master Electrician is basically supposed to ensure that the company is following all laws, including labour law.

To perform work for somebody else you must be a licensed Construction and Maintenance Electrician, as that is a regulated trade in Ontario.

We'll leave the subject of Industrial Electricians alone for now.

Bruce
Originally Posted by brsele
For example an electrical engineer can receive the designation of Master Electrician. However the Master Electrician can only perform work if they are a licensed electrician.


I'm an electrical engineer, but I'm certainly not qualified to do electrician's work. They don't teach things like the NEC in college, it's all theory. And labor law isn't taught there either.
Originally Posted by wa2ise
I'm an electrical engineer, but I'm certainly not qualified to do electrician's work. They don't teach things like the NEC in college, it's all theory. And labor law isn't taught there either.


I believe that it's all about liability and having somebody to point a finger at and blame.
I can't understand why the NEC is not mandatory for EEs.

No offense intended, there are really good EEs that do electrical power. My rant is to those who can't prepare a panel schedule, and load calcs!!

Sorry for jumping off topic!!
In Saskatchewan the only way anyone other than a licensed electrician can legally do electrical work is if they are a homeowner doing their own work after obtaining a homeowner's permit. The homeowners permit has limitations.

This would not explain my original question. I may have to go to the source and hope they are willing to explain their method. I don't want to work around the clock with 2 jobs but being able to pick-up the odd sideline job outside regular work hours would be a great option to have.
Originally Posted by Potseal
In Saskatchewan the only way anyone other than a licensed electrician can legally do electrical work is if they are a homeowner doing their own work after obtaining a homeowner's permit. The homeowners permit has limitations.

Which is the same in Ontario. As I said the master electrician can only perform work if they are also a licensed electrician.
Originally Posted by Potseal

This would not explain my original question. I may have to go to the source and hope they are willing to explain their method. I don't want to work around the clock with 2 jobs but being able to pick-up the odd sideline job outside regular work hours would be a great option to have.

What you may find is that the cost of being legal cannot be justified over the odd sideline job. Between my ECRA lic., master lic., WSIB, liab. ins., the new college of trades fees, etc, my first $5.00 an hour goes to just being legal. And then I still have to compete with all of the unlicensed hacks.
"What you may find is that the cost of being legal cannot be justified over the odd sideline job. Between my ECRA lic., master lic., WSIB, liab. ins., the new college of trades fees, etc, my first $5.00 an hour goes to just being legal. And then I still have to compete with all of the unlicensed hacks."

The same issues are valid here stateside. The actual dollars vary between the states but here in NJ costs are way up. Those without (hacks/trunk slammers) are tough to compete with.


Just from the title of this topic, I'd say that's a big risk.

I'd never let someone else use my # .. whether a journeyman credential or especially a CSLB number .. nothing but liability there not to mention it's probably a criminal offense. Besides what happens if someone unfortunately died from the installations of the one using your number ..that's a involuntary manslaughter charge, I strongly would stay clear from allowing others to use your number of any kind ..
If the question was is it ok to sell your permits I would say no.
Is it legal to work for one guy and work for yourself after normal work hours and on weekends? yup that is fine from a BC perspective.
I am an inspector from 8 to 4:30 from 4:30 to 8 I could be an electrician and work for anyone (outside of my jurisdiction) While I am employed as an inspector I cannot also have a contractor's licence but Most municipal authorities don't care if I do contract work except in the municipality I work for.
Based on the rules in BC a person can work for several contractors but can only take permits for the company they are registered to. If he is an electrician for company A and does not take out permits for them then he should be free to take permits for his own business.
Burning the candle at both ends and having a private, competing business are reasons I would not hire him but I doubt they are illegal. I sure don't want a competing contractor working for me as he can eventually take my secrets or customer lists.
© ECN Electrical Forums