I was reading this todayEBMAG

Doug:
Interesting reading! Here in New Jersey, based on state laws, we issue 'homeowner' permits. They are limited to single family, owner occupied residences.

They require the same inspections as a job by a NJ Lic. Electrical Contractor.

Some Townships require a 'CCO' inspection on change of ownership or change of occupancy. That is where all the 'Sins of the Past' show up. Basement finishes without permits, decks, the occasional addition, etc., without permits. Those are the tough ones!

The real problem is the work that doesn't get inspected. If you get rid of the home owner permit, the work that didn't get inspected still won't get inspected. In addition, the work that was inspected under the home owner permit, won't get inspected either.

TWH:
Yes, I agree with you 100% that the non-permitted & non-inspected work is a problem. Yes, making it 'hard' to obtain an approved permit, will result in more work without permits.

Our CCO inspection procedure turns up quite a few un-inspected/un-permitted work; some code compliant, some hacks, some DIY disasters. It makes for a interesting day when the 'as-built' permit inspections are on the days list.

I have to agree with the others.
If you eliminate home owner permits the work will still get done. It just won't get inspected.
I also have to say that the specific issues he points out in his article probably weren't inspected either. I have also seen some stuff like he describes done by so called electricians.

Part of the problem is also that these "home inspectors" are rarely qualified to determine if residential electrical installations are safe or not. The turnover of the house from owner who did the hack wiring job to potential new owners is the best time to identify wiring faults. A prudent buyer should at least get a licensed electrical contractor to inspect the electrical. The home inspectors will often just tell the owner they need a GFCI receptacle to give the impression they performed their due diligence.

The author suggests that the insurance companies take this problem on board by demanding an inspection on change of ownership or every 10 years. I'd say a pro inspection. If they did that, our premiums could go down for once as the fire risks got eliminated.

FYI on this new CSA standard for inspection of existing homes.Please see link below, CSA C22.6 No.1

http://shop.csa.ca/en/restofworld/c221-canadian-electrical-code/c226-no-1-11/invt/27032262011/

Jay8:
Thanks for the link. Some of the 'sparkies' here in New Jersey complain about the $70-$80 dollars for the NEC every 3 years. They would sure jump up & down about $120 US for only 70 pages!!

What a crazy price for that, I sure would like to read it .

Luckily this is a brand new standard and I dont think it has been adopted yet, so no need to rush out to buy a copy, though I see enough reno work to get one for myself.

But I agree, where CSA comes up with the pricing is anyones guess. I do quite a bit of fire alarm work, and had to get ULC S524,536 and 537 all at about 145.00 each, and they are only about 50-70 pages each!

They cost so much because CSA is not Funded to give them away. NFPA Standards are much cheaper.

I have read this standard and if home inspectors were actually competent to do what is required in the standard then a homeowner might actually get a valuable and reliable assessment of their electrical systems.

It is one of the few standards written for an electrical contractor to use.

That standard may be a good thing for these 'Licensed (NJ) Home Inspectors' to use as a required guideline.

From reading this threa, it sounds like you have some of the same issues with Home Inspectors as we do down here!

mikesh: Help me out, please. I'm wondering if this is a worthwhile standard for me. I don't do many home inspections and I'm a very poor inspector, so I could dearly use a guide. My concern is that I don't need a book of old code rules and obvious suggestions. What do you think?

I would have thought that an inspection pertaining to a permit for electrical work, would have to be done by an electrical inspector or am I wrong?

Trumpy, that is correct that permit inspections are done by electrical inspectors.

In Canada home buyers can make an offer subject to a home inspection. Sometimes they hire a "Home Inspector", or they might hire tradesmen if they suspect problems and want a quoted price for repairs.

For a permitted inspection, in my province, the inspectors are employed by the power company which provides training. Then, they can inspect to the standard to which they are trained.

For a home inspection, if a home inspector finds any electrical problems, he is really doing more than we would expect of an untrained person. However, if an electrician misses any problems, he is doing less than might be expected and could end up paying for repairs.

If I have a national standard that doesn't say that I should open every plug box and look for ground tied to neutral, then I can skip that and say that I inspected to the "standard". Then, if the buyer finds a problem, I have a defense to a potential law suit.

For a person that does this a lot it is a practical application so I think this is a good standard for an electrical contractor. It is written so that it could be used with or as a checklist. Obviously a well developed checklist based on the standard would do. One thing I notice with the development of Standards.
They start out as voluntary, The customers for this survey are likely Insurance companies and realtors (customers of realtors). After a few years the standard becomes the defacto evaluation document. Since it caries a regulatory weight it will become compulsory after a few years if the industry takes notice and places faith in the document.
Probably the first edition will get some substantial rework in the first years following adoption as additional input and work is done under the standard.

Yes Work under permit is done by an Electrical Inspector.
This survey is not that work. I as a municipal employee would not go to a house and do this kind of an inspection as it could attach liability to the city.
These inspections are done by contractors and in my mind I'd never do one for fear of liability. They are intended to be a complete and detailed evaluation of the entire electrical system. Anyone doing this is always in danger that any shortcut they took could result in liabilities especially if they are in any way naive or trusting short cutting employees.
I don't see permits involved unless the contractor also fixes what they find. The challenge is to keep this work to qualified persons. I have read enough general home inspection reports to know the variability in their competencies. Major faults being missed and petty things over emphasized. An electrical contractor is the right person for electrical surveys.

Anybody want to guess how many hours would be involved in doing an inspection according to this standard . lets say a 3 bedroom house built in the 70;s 2 story 3 bedroom with ceiling fans in bedrooms, and maybe a couple other locations that were diy installed, light fixtures rated for 90c cable only basement finished on weekends with handy andy doing the electrical. decora on aluminum conductors . opening up each opening looking for damaged wiring .
Thanks

Mikesh:

"The challenge is to keep this work to qualified persons. I have read enough general home inspection reports to know the variability in their competencies. Major faults being missed and petty things over emphasized. An electrical contractor is the right person for electrical surveys."

I agree with you 100%!! Over here (NJ) the 'Home Inspectors' are licensed by the State, and I have no idea what the qualifications are, other than working with an already Lic. Home Inspector.

Reading some of the reports, brings laughter to me, and my office! Four typed sentences for a broken bulb in a keyless lampholder? Ya gotta laugh!

BTW, I thought we (NJ) had the market cornered.

Unfortunately Yes,I agree.

When i have a homeowner Balk- at a permit-

I simply state that Insurance may or may not cover any potential loss- for what ever reason, if the work is not on record. PITA? yes. Do I sleep well? Yes.

People- Contractors as well as home owners think the permitting issue is -- I'm at a loss for words- It just insures that the job is correct,and above board.

In my area- I have never paid more than $100.00 (USD) for a residential permit.
The only hassle has been making sure that Myself or the customer are there to give access.

This is really part of the problem. I cannot imagine a thorough inspection in less than 1/2 a day but I have seen Whole house inspections done in an hour. To do a real evaluation you need to check every plug with at least a polarity and GFCI tester. Every light fixture in old home shoudl be checked that it is not over heating the wiring and that the temperature requirment of the fixture is met by the wiring. Panel covers off and a really good look. circuiting and verifying the directory. Looking in the attic and crawl spaces. There is a lot ot look at and too much for a 1 or 2 hour call.

I guess if a house is more than 10 years old just a visual look at the plug would tell me it needs replaced. I am always seeing where the piece of plastic is always broken on the face of the plug just under the ground opening.
let alone too loose to retain a plug properly.

Just wondering if anybody has used the tension checker on this link

http://testequipmentandtools.com/acatalog/AC_Receptable_Testers.html

How about this one? This is not an offshore product, but made in the States. Looks like it would give you some good data for a meaningful inspection report.

http://www.tasco-usa.com/inspectorIII.htm

I have one of those, I also think they are making them for amprobe. Inspector 3

they look like a nice tester - what do you think of it Doug? I am considering getting one.

I use that one often in really old houses and doctors offices and treatment rooms.

I like the IDEAL 165 tester for a detailed outlet testing.

TASCO makes ( under label ) a series of Greenlee testers. ( 2007, 2011 )

Their Inspector III is a must have for Service Electricians.

http://www.tasco-usa.com/CMT24S.htm

My favorite is their Circuit Mapper. When you can't possibly shut down breaker after breaker -- it's the cat's pajamas.

Well I bought and printed the standard today and briefly read it.It does have some useful info and a history of code changes over the years.

Is it the CSA standard you bought? I bought the one that was advertised as 70 pages. The breakdown is:
1 page: Cover
1 page: Legal Notice
1 page: Advertising the update service
1 page: Blank
1 page: Title
1 page: Copyright notice
2 pages: Table of contents
6 pages: List of committee members
1 page: Preface
1 page: Blank
1 page: Scope
5 pages: Definitions
16 pages: Standards
3 pages: Informative Annex
6 pages: Checklist
15 pages: History of major changes of the code
2 pages: Model guide for enforcement
3 pages: Minimum requirements
1 page: Bibliography
1 page: Blank
1 page: Recycled paper notice

There is some duplication between the checklist and the standards, as you would expect.

I've never been excited about the ability of CSA to produce a legal document and now I'm doubtful about their ability to stay out of the hands of the class-action lawyers. I'd like to sell 70 boxes of electrical parts, some of them empty and others containing just the name of the part. At least the recycled paper notice shouldn't have been counted on a copy that I down-loaded.

Yup That one

Then I put the print both sides option print in the wrong way in the printer and every second page is upside down.

But now I see I should suggest painted devices are not really acceptable

and I was shocked i was charged HST.

At least I feel comfortable about what CSA expects for a existing residence fr safety. I am a bit surprised they didn't get into detail about light fixtures and 60 degree wiring

I wonder when Home inspectors will be qualified to tell their clients about the requirements in this CSA Document. Are they going to have to inform the realtor and homebuyer that painted over switches and receptacles are not compliant with this document ? I also wonder where I can purchase a receptacle tension measuring device

Doug:

Believe it or not, here's a link to the tester...

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DANIEL-WOODHEAD-Receptacle-Tester-1PJK7

About $75US plus shipping I guess....

Never saw it till now

It sure would of been nice if in this standard they would of added the tempertures of different nmd cables made over the years