How far from where the service conduit enters a residential building can the panel be placed?

The AHJ in my area says "a reasonable distance" When pressed for a number he says a reasonable distance is 15 feet or less. Any further than that he requires disco/over current protection on the outside of the building. As far as a maxium with OCP he had no maximum.

6-206 says: "As close as practical to the point where the consumer's service conductors enter the building."

What's the situation that you're looking at?

Bruce

we have had to bury teck and encase it in concrete to get around a chimmy on the out side to get to a panel location

This is a Saskatchewan interpretation, from the SaskPower web site:I like the definite rule, but wonder about the validity of an interpretation. At least they put it in writing.

The real situation is that a carpenter built a house and planned the meter location and panel location based on this rule. However, the panel could be in the basement bedroom and be closer to the meter. It could be practicable to have the panel in the bedroom.

So I put the panel in the furnace room, as far as 6m of conduit would reach. That seemed practicable in light of the interpretation.

I know I could phone the inspector, but I think I should be able to rely on my own judgement. I have a code book too. Anyway, I'm not sure that the inspector should be making the call and doing the inspection. It's too much like inspecting his own work.

What is the interpretation of practicable where you are?

On the exterior is can be as far as you want basically...once you enter the building this is what you get...



That is the Ontario perspective.

Cheers

I just built my own house and being an electrician I wired it as well. my load center is approx 25 feet from the meter base with no over current protection outside. How did it pass you may ask? Since my mechanical room is not on an exterior wall I ran my conduit through a sleve I put in the foundation (garage entrance side) and came up in the garage at the wall I needed to go through, then LB into mechanical room. My maximum conduit distance exposed is around 2.5 feet. Even though the service runs under my garage pad, it is not considered in the house yet.
PS. I used an expansion fitting before the conduit went underground. My conduit run was complete so I did not want settling dirt to rip my meter base off the wall!!! I also have about 200' of spare 3/4" conduit runs (6 runs) and 60' of 1" as well for future all stubed above the garage floor and through foundation below grade. Just in case!

In Victoria it is literal. As close as practicable. If I can find a legal location for a panel IE not a bathroom, coal bin, closet, crawlspace, and the contractor choses a place further into the building then it fails or gets encased in 2 inches of concrete. BC has a Directive on section 6 that expands on this but the absolute limit without concrete is 1.5 meter subject to that location being as close as practicable.

This is from a 2009 Standata from Alberta. I'm guessing it's their interpretation of reasonable:

I thought the rule about rigid conduit was an odd interpretation, but 2 inches of conduit is an even stranger interpretation of "as close as practicable".

It's 2 " of concrete not conduit. The concrete makes it fire safe since the conductors are not fused.

The likelihood of a typo increases by the square of the number of readers.

I understand the reason for the rule. It's the interpretations that are interesting. The phrase "as close as practicable" has distances and wiring methods attached. It's almost like we still have amendments.

I would say that rule is made considering voltage drop. So "as close as posible" does not seem defined completly. Voltaage drop can't be more that 5%.
From service to main panel 2%.
From main panel to branch 3%.


Now I am still an apprentice so I might be wrong, that is why I like to ask questions. Forgive me if I am anoying.

B.C. Directives say that any distance greater than 1.5m is considered unacceptable without prior consultation with Authority.
"To limit the risk of fire, because service conductors lack effective overcurrent protection."

Ummmmmmmm....

I'm wondering why that should be up to us to 'solve'. Afterall aren't conductors supposed to have effective overcurrent protection?

Put overcurrent protection in the meters is an idea. Then we can run them wires as far as practicable
Thanks Hydro! (I'll take one of those electric crimpers too)

The issue is unrelated to VD in this case. The conductors ahead of the main switch are considered to have no overcurrent protection. You probably have seen fuses on the pole top transformer that supplies the 6 to 10 houses you are all connected to. If one of the ungrounded (hot) wire faults to ground in a service raceway the utility transformer might see that bug bump in current as a load rather than a fault. I have certainly seen a few service panels and raceways burned completely away before the fuse on the transformer or a connection in the meter or triplex opens under the heavy current flow. If this service pipe was inside your walls it might set the house on fire before the fuse on the transformer blows. It is very common for utility transformers loaded to %200 of their rating when connected to residential services. In the case of the panels I have seen burned away I got to the house after the fire trucks.
By encasing the raceway in concrete it is hoped that the concrete will enclose the melting raceway and protect the combustible wall it is inside. Eventually the fuse will open or the raceway will burn away enough to stop conducting fault current.
Then there is the problem of theft from the utility. We have seen more than a few raceways cut open ahead of the meter to tap the utility wires. Pot growers seem to love to do this.

Okay... but I won't forgive you for saying THAT!

Dude. Some of us don't look down on 'apprentices' (people). Talk to us, not the ones that do.

If you have a situation where "as close as practicable" is not a good location for your panel, you could consider a fusible disconnect after the meter, then place your loadcenter where ever you need at whatever distance.

This is particularly suitable when the meter is mounted on a garage, so the disconnect can go inside the garage, or where there is room for a fusible disconnect inside the house but not a combination panel.

.

I did service entrance 400A, 200A, and 100A. I do remember
connecting meter box. It is logic to fuse meter, but I never saw one (not plugged in).
So we need a disconect switch to be as close as posible.

I will quote both USA and France side with the max distance from meter to main panel the USA side it will varies a bit depending on which states they use that codes but most of them say short as possible so tyically less than 2 meters from the main meter but few do can go much as 4 or 5 the most.

In France we are limited to 3.5 max distance but most case they are useally on outdoor main disconnect switch.

Merci.
Marc

I'm bringing this back up for a situation that I have now.

A customer is building a house and wants the panel located in a interior room about 35' away from the meter base.

The inspector said that using rule 6-208, that I'd be fine. This would mean that I would bring conduit straight down from the meter base, go below grade, sweep 90 through the foundation wall, run along below the basement slab and sweep 90 up into the mechanical room and straight into the panel.

My concern is 6-300(3).

Opinions please.

Thanks... Bruce

There's the "legal" answer, and the "reality" based answer.

The US rule is that the main disconnect must be as close as practical to the meter / service entrance. While MOST places have long understood this to mean either right next to, or on the interior wall face immediately behind, the panel... some places let the rule be stretched to allow the OP's proposed situation.

This has changed in practical terms. It's rare now to have just a simple meter base; most either have a disconnect in them, or are even meter/ disconnect / panel combos ("All in Ones").

For my house, I used a small "All in one" at the service drop. At $45, the unit cost less than most simple meter bases. With only 10 spaces, this panel isn't very large- so I use it to serve a second panel inside the house. The remaining outside spaces are used only for feeding outside loads, like the air conditioner and a receptacle at the service.

I really object to 'stretching' the rule, as proposed by the OP. Sure, he says 'conduit,' but I've seen it done with SER cable. Face the truth: walls are nowhere near thick enough for a proper bending radius with conduit. Are your walls a foot thick?

Here in Arkansas, there have been instances of someone piercing the SER - which has NO overcurrent protection, or means to disconnect power- with a nail. One nasty surprise when you want to hang a picture!

Again, to use my house as an example, I fed the interior panel using a mix of RMC and EMT- surface run to an LB into the crawl space, then under the floor joists and up into the panel. with (nominal) 10" floor joists and hanging the pipe from strut, there was plenty of room for the required radius, and the ability to use another LB had I desired.

My arrangement replaced the original service, which ran unfused in SER through two walls and across one room's ceiling to feed an old panel in a closet. That room had later been covered with paneling, with dozens of nails that were plenty long enough to pierce the SER as it was installed. Only luck prevented a problem.

I suppose you could convert to rigid where it comes through the basement floor and install a proper seal under the panel.

I'd be tempted to use acwu and just use duxseal between the cable and the sleeve where it comes through the basement floor.

I don't care if you wrap the feed in armor plate and encase it in concrete- why do folks have such a passionate objection to having overcurrent protection and a disconnect right at the meter?

The idea makes even less sense when omitting these things costs more than having them.

I agree with you Reno, if you can get a meter base with a disconnect for $50, why wouldn't you. Unfortunately those run about $1,200 in my area.

So I have some questions for you...
- What make are they?
- Are they approved for use in Canada?
- Do you want to go into the meter base business?

For twh, I thought about using ACWU. I'd have to install a short section of rigid PVC through the foundation wall for the concrete pour.

Do you think that I would need another sleeve going through the slab?

Thanks... Bruce

If you don't have a sleeve through the slab, the acwu would probably be damaged when they finish the cement.

Are you sure you can go through the foundation wall? I think the floor can be fairly close to the footing.

Reno:
You said...
"For my house, I used a small "All in one" at the service drop. At $45, the unit cost less than most simple meter bases. With only 10 spaces, this panel isn't very large- so I use it to serve a second panel inside the house."

All-in-ones are not common in my area, and I am amazed that you can buy one for under $50!! You are referring to an enclosure with a meter socket, main OCP, and branch circuit bus space, correct??

You're probably right about damage through the slab. Good point.

Where I am is different then where you are. We have the Canadian Shield, so when an area is excavated they go right down to the bedrock, find the high point and build up from there. The lower areas get filled in with sand. On this job, I'll probably have 5' of sand between the slab and the footings.

Here is the product I used:

http://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-SO1020VP-20-Circuit/dp/B00CONLELU

(Sorry for the Amazon link to a 'package deal.' The Square D website seems to have become ever more useless.) Panel widely available throughout the Western USA, and is stocked by Graybar.

It's a 100 amp, overhead feed unit. By replacing the main breaker, you can increase it to 125 amps. Otherwise, there are numerous other varieties made, to at least a 200 amp rating.

The base is of the 'ring type.' Other models are available ringless.

My specific model is not 'Canada Legal.' This is because of the Canadian requirement for a more extensive partition between the two halves. Loyal viewers of "Holmes" may have noticed the additional shielding within Canadian panels.

Yes, the unit has a meter base, a main breaker, plus space for 10 full size breakers (or 20 'skinnies').

Here's another link to another vendor, showing some of the other models available:

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electric...D-by-Schneider-Electric/N-5yc1vZbm1bZ684

$1200? I suspect you are being fed the "List price," which for Square D is an absurd joke.

It can also pay to be persistent. When I wished to get mine (after I moved to Arkansas), I did face some difficulties. I was given prices in the $800 range, told it was non-stock, special order, and all that. Having installed dozens of them in Reno, I had some trouble accepting that line- even when it was repeated to me over the phone by area rep!

The issue was solved when I called Graybar and confirmed that, yes, they had plenty available. With that, my local vendor suddenly found a way to obtain one for me.

At $1200 I know that I'm being ripped off.
But I am Canadian and we're nice and accept it.

Go on the homedepot.ca website and you'll see that those products aren't even offered here.

These are available in Canada. I don't have access to a price with gutter for underground and a breaker, but I think it would be about $600. The great thing about this one is that you can use Canadian dollars.

www.tnb.ca/en/pdf-catalogues/boxes-...r-sockets/100-a-120-240-v-co1-series.pdf

Reno:
Thanks for the link and info.

Thanks TWH, that's the one that I was quoted $1200 for.
But even at $600 it's still a far cry from $50.

Cheers