ECN Forum

License for work

Posted By: marsbar

License for work - 05/21/08 01:16 PM

There have been previous strands about 442A and 309(A-D) performing each others work. A 309 can work in a foctory and the company accepts responcibility for the employee and after 2 years the 309 can write for his/her 442. I am pretty sure that the same is for a 442 to work under a contractor for 2 years (full or part time) and can go for his/her 309. Can anyone tell me exactly how the process works.

Thanks for the help.
Posted By: mr_electrician

Re: License for work - 05/21/08 05:30 PM

Legally a contractor cannot employ someone to do electrical work for them unless they are a registered 309a apprentice working with a journeyman or have a 309a license. This is because contractors work in various places that are accesable to the general public. A 309 is a regulated lisence as well and this is done by renewal every 3 years.
A 442 license is not requlated and never neads to be renewed. You are limited to working for industrial facilities. I aquired my 309a first and then after meeting the requirments challenged to 442a and received it as well.
Posted By: frank

Re: License for work - 05/23/08 10:14 AM

I see 309a and 442a electricians doing each others work all the time and no one cares.This trade is not regulated in ontario.The 309a is a compulsory trade however and you must have that license if you are in business for your self and even then you wont be stopped.An employer can hire a bum off the street and put him to work as an electrician if they deem them COMPETENT as stated in the Ontario Heath and Safety Act.Ford only hires 442a Chrysler only wants 309a and GM will take either so there is no difference.You get paid for the type of work you are doing not your ticket.For construction matainance you get around $49000 a year industrial gets $59000 average.This is from the Ontario job futures web site.I can post the link showing some of the identical job opportunities for both licenses if you wish.
cheers
Posted By: marsbar

Re: License for work - 05/23/08 12:06 PM

Thanks for the input, it stills bothers me that both take the same education except one class in third year, commercial wiring methods instead of hydraulics (442). I worked under 309 journeymen so we do most of our own installs.
Posted By: mr_electrician

Re: License for work - 05/23/08 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by frank
I see 309a and 442a electricians doing each others work all the time and no one cares.This trade is not regulated in ontario.

According to ESA, a contractor IS NOT leagally allowed to send a 442a into the field to do electrical work. Ask any inspector and they will tell you that. This is what I mean by regulated.
Quoting "An employer can hire a bum off the street and put him to work as an electrician if they deem them COMPETENT as stated in the Ontario Heath and Safety Act." This is only true in a privatly operated operation such as manufacturing. These buildings are not accessed by the general public.
Only a 309a can leagaly work both!
Posted By: frank

Re: License for work - 05/24/08 07:14 AM

I have to disagree.I work in a public biulding that adhears to the ESA
Posted By: frank

Re: License for work - 05/24/08 07:58 AM

I still have to disagree.I work in a public building that ad hears to the ESA regulations in fact we have been using the ESA CCS contract for the past 12yrs and have inspections every 30 days on work done by non licensed people.Many apartment buildings also use there own non licensed maint personnel to maintain there buildings and only call contractors for more complicated work.Whether it's legal or not it is being allowed.As long as permits are pulled for new work and liability issues are covered no one seems to care and thats a fact.This is the reasoning behind the Masters license if you ask ESA and i have.Don't you find it ironic that you need not be an electrican to be a master electrician?
cheers
Posted By: mr_electrician

Re: License for work - 05/26/08 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by frank
Don't you find it ironic that you need not be an electrican to be a master electrician?
cheers


I agree on that issue. Why should someone who has never touched a multimeter appear to have the same experience as me but yet still be called a master electrician!
Posted By: marsbar

Re: License for work - 05/27/08 01:00 AM

Thanks for the input, I will be speaking with Jim Walters here in London (apprenticeship rep.) I am pretty sure he is going to tell me the same: 309 public and 442 in factories. All I wanted to do was some jobs for friends and make sure I am not hanging myself in the process (permits) as of January I am pretty sure that I am not supposed to do work then have the owner call a permit to ensure the work is inspected. Here's the funny part, I have seen a lot of residential work over the past 3 years that if I did the same in the factory I would be fired.
Posted By: homerjones

Re: License for work - 06/11/08 12:32 AM

legally you cannot do work for your friends as you are not a contractor your friends will be fined as well as you and yes a contractor can hire any bum who knows nothing and send them out to do work as long as it is inspected as the esa says he she works for a licensed contractor who is responsible for them that is completey bogus but the esa lets them do it.
Posted By: marsbar

Re: License for work - 06/16/08 01:23 PM

So what if this ends up backfiring, home owners keep doing thier own work but now there is no inspection and something is installed unsafe. The owner would be aware because he probably called for a permit or inspection and gets told to pay $75 - $100/hr for a contractor.
Posted By: renosteinke

Re: License for work - 06/18/08 01:15 AM

Just for everyone's amusement, I'd like to explaing how this topic is handled in Reno, Nv. ,,, aka "south of the border." laugh

First, any employer can hire anyone.

If the employer is a manufacturer, and he wishes to have this person do electrical work, the employer need only pay a few dollars, and the city will issue that person an 'industrial electrician' card. The card is of no value outside of that employer - it is not transferable to another employer, nor does it imply any particular competence.

If the employer is an electrical contractor, the employer needs a state- issued EC license. For this you need pass two tests - one on the electrical code, and one on contracting law. In order to take the tests, you must be able to document five years of journeyman level work for a licensed electrical contractor.

The EC may hire anyone as a 'helper.' If the person is to do electrical work, they must hold either an apprentice 'card' or a journeyman 'card' that is issued on behalf of the city.
For the apprentice card, the applicant needs to be officially enrolled in one of two (federal) Dept. of Labor recognized apprenticeship programs.
For the journeyman card, the apprentice must complete the four years' of coursework, as well as document 8000 hours of work for a licensed EC, with that experience spread among different areas.

Let me put this system in perspective.

I know one gent who spent 23 years as an electrician in the Navy. Beginning as a simple seaman, he retired as a full Captain. He was not allowed to even take the test for the journeyman card in Reno. He was able to take the state test as a 'qualified employee' and worked for five years under another EC license. That is, the employer - who was not qualified to take the test - was able to be an 'electrical contractor' only because he had this gent as his 'qualified employee.'

Another man came to Reno, after several years in serious industrial electrical experience. Not having a journeymans' card from the electricians' union, his experience was not recognized. The apprentice programs felt he was 'too old,' and would not let him into the programs. He found an employer who (officially) only used him on 'outside of town' jobs, he paid his own way through the courses, and after four years of work compelled the city to let him take the test for the journeymans' card. Five years after that, he tested for, and received his EC license. Which is fortunate, as his employer for these nine years was ready to retire laugh.

Who said any government had a monopoly on insanity?
Posted By: marsbar

Re: License for work - 06/18/08 01:38 PM

From what I am learning it's not that different up here. The EASC is adverising this fact now on the radio, but if a homeowner who used to be able to do work in his/her own home and pay for an inspection to make sure everything is done properly is no longer able to do that, do you think he or she will pay the contractor to do the work or not get the inspection?
Posted By: mr_electrician

Re: License for work - 06/20/08 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by marsbar
From what I am learning it's not that different up here. The EASC is adverising this fact now on the radio, but if a homeowner who used to be able to do work in his/her own home and pay for an inspection to make sure everything is done properly is no longer able to do that, do you think he or she will pay the contractor to do the work or not get the inspection?

A home owner is still legally allowed to do his or her own work, but is still required by law to take out proper permits and get an inspection.
Posted By: marsbar

Re: License for work - 06/24/08 08:03 AM

Yes, you are correct. I was speaking with our local ESA inspector and we were talking about this as well. Todd Brown (ESA) said that a homeowner must sign a form that says they have done thier own work, he also mentioned that one can take paermits out for work for: family, service groups or church, basically he said that if you are doing the work for free there isn't a problem it's when someone is taking work away from contractors that causes the issue.
Posted By: marsbar

Re: License for work - 06/24/08 08:08 AM

I should have put this on the previous post, our ESA inspector also mentioned that they are getting rid of the 442A and going to 309a and 309d, anyone with a 442 can be grandfathered to a 309. Has anyone heard about this?
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