What are the differences between all the Canadian licences.I don't even know how many there are.I see 442a,309a,309d is there a 442d?
Any one have a list with the restrictions?
thanks
Sounds numbers specific to Ontario, try the Electrical Safety Authority web site for some clarification.
A 309A is a Construction and Maintenance certification
A 309D is a Construction and Maintenance certification with an electronics endorsment. I do believe that is no longer available.
A 442A is an Industrial certification.
There are no other licenses unless you include the Ontario Master's certification.
There are quite a number of "electrical trades" in Canada.
In Ontario the most common are:
309a Electrician Construction and Maintenance
309c Electrician Domestic and Rural
309d Electrician Construction and Maintenance (Electronic Control Endorsement)
442a Electrician Industrial
There are a number of high voltage, machine builders, railway, etc which are all trades.
As far as I know, In Ontario the only regulated ones is the 309a & d. All the others are non-regulated.
Cheers
Navyguy
What do you mean by "regulated"?
What do you mean by "regulated"?
A regulated license would be the 309 series. They must be renewed every 3 years, where as a 442 license is not regulated. It never has to be renewed.
I was talking to an ESA inspector and according to him electrical work is not regulated in the province of ontario.If it was only licensed electricians would be able to preform any electrical work.The Ontario health and safety act allows for the preformance of work by owners and competent employees not just electricians.
Further more 442A electricians who were licensed before July 2001 must still renew.Apparently 442a's were the first to pay for there classroom seat in school in leu of paying license renwal fees.He thinks it's the same for all 309a and 442a electricians who go through the government program.The only difference between the two is the type of work preformed,production as opposed to construction and both can work in either field without sanction
He is 100% positive Ontario is NOT regulated and probably never will be.This why a master electrician need not be a qualified electrician.
cheers
"The only difference between the two is the type of work preformed,production as opposed to construction and both can work in either field without sanction"
This is not true. You cannot leagally work for an electrical contractor using a 442a license.
I've done it and i know of many 442a electricians working in construction right now.Why does inspection allow it if it's illegal?I also see 309a in the auto plants and machine tool maintaining and building the lines.The 309a and 442a take the same school program just write a different test.I was also told the 442a replaced the 309c.One license is no better than the other.The 442a makes more money simply because they work production.In windsor ford ony hires 442a.Chrysler will only hire 309a and GM hires both this i know for a fact and there is no wage difference between the two in the plants or the construction sector.Go to Ontario Job futures and you see that some the job descriptions are the same.
cheers
I am not trying to argue or start a debate but.......it is not an electrical inspector that enforces what lisence is allowed to work for a contractor. It is the Ministry of Labour. As well.....how many times has an electrical inspector asked to see what license you posses while working for a contractor or on a job site? My guess and experience would probably tell me none. I have only been asked by the Ministry of Labour.
The facts that I have given are straight from an inspector while taking the Masters course.
442a is not regulated like a 309a. A plant is a privatly owned establishment where as in construction and maintenance (309a) you are working for contractors which in turn work in public buildings where the general public are exposed to.
Both licenses are great to have.....thats why I have both...but I am more sought after having a 309a.
i just talked to the esa about contractors employing non licensed people and they say that is fine for non qualified people doing elec. work but godforbid a journeyman cannot do wiring for somebody and take out a permit simply because they are not a registered contractor this is completely (expletive deleted) they are only worried about taxes for the govt. not peoples safety.
I TOTALLY AGREE with homer jones!!! It is BUll.... that I can not do simple side jobs to help support my family without taking the risk of getting fined!!!!! We are the only trade in Ontario that are fully qualified to do their job but cannot without spending thousands of dallars first (just to do a basement reno or move a plug). I can see the point from contracotrs about how they are paying all the insurance and liability just to be undercut by a lisence guy wanting to do the same job for cheaper, but not allowing us to use our talents even when we take out permits is crap!
I also think that it is crap that anyone can go to a big box store or such and become an electrician in one of thier 20 minute DIY classes!!!! THAT SHOULD BE STOPPED! NOT THE QUALIFIED TRADESMEN!
As well, I also think it is CRAP that a non lisenced guy can write the masters exam, pass, then have a misleading title of Master Electrician without having one minute in the trade!!!
Can you tell that this is a touchy topic for me!!
We should as Electricians start some kind of petition to send to the Ontario government and ESA to reverse this money grab and try to find another method of controlling DYI people!!!!!!!
Mabey the legislatiopn should permit us to do a up to a certain scope of work but still require the insurance. That way contractors and guys who want to earn extra money on the side doing small jobs both win!
What do you guys in Ontario think???? SHall I start a petition? Would you sign it, or have any other ideas? Lets unite as electricians and take our Trade back!!
The goal of this legislation as I understand it was to standardize the licensing in Ontario. Previously all business licenses were a local responsibility. Anyone who paid the license fee could call themselves a licensed electrician. They wanted a standard province wide licensing system with qualification behind it.
In response to Mr. Electrician, There are many reasons licensed electrical contractors are the one who can take out permits. I have heard about this money grab time and time again, however this amount is insignificant in an overall sense and significantly cheaper if you are sued. The current regulation enacted beginning Jan. 2007 also allows homeowners to take permits out for their own home as well as industry employing an electrician on their payroll. My costs for licensing as an electrical contractor are as follows:(all yearly costs) $350.00 Contractor license from ESA; $750.00 for insurance; and WSIB costs (if employees) are all requirements for the contractors license from ESA. You also have to be up to date on your taxes as well. I realize license electricians know what they are doing on the job (most), however you still run the risk of being sued if the worst happens (unlikely, but true) as well insurance companies are requiring more paperwork everyday for their clients. Remember rules are often made to protect us from stupid people making stupid mistakes. I agree with you on seminars offered by HD, Rona, et.c, should not have any electrical themes. I dream of the day that the government or industry steps in and prevents any electrical materials from being sold to anyone without a license, or only sold at wholesalers. The current regulations passed in 2007 are a step in the right direction for reducing the black market/no permits jobs, however it is not the complete solution. Everything has a cost and spread out over many customers it doesn't become a concern.
heres a question if the owner of a hotel calls you up and says can you do some work for me ill hire you as a casual employee you do the work and the corp. will take out the necessary permit is this allowed and if so where does it say that in writing?
as for the petition youve got my signature.
I've never seen it in writing anywhere other than the Ontario health and safety act(little green book).It mentions restrictions on employee competence and i want to say it's page 573 but i can look it up later if you like.I also know maintenance workers at all the apartment buildings are doing there own electrical work.
As it stands in the hospital where i currently work any employee who claims to be competent and who is also deemed to be competent by management may work and trouble shoot up to 600v equipment.They must not work alone and a person who is certified in CPR and who can also perform the work be present.
Apparently because of bill c145 should someone get hurt criminal charges resulting in jail time and individual fines up to 100000 can be laid against management and even employees who look the other way when unsafe work practices are used.This bill was introduced in an attempt to make work places safer with out impeding the flow of business.However very few small employers understand the consequences and are not giving c145 proper respect.It really seems that if no one gets hurt the government doesn't care but as soon a it happens people can go to jail and lose there livelihood.Needless to say this hospital only puts licensed electricians on work above 240v
cheers
what im really after is can a hotel as an example or it could be a grocery store under corp ownership hire me a licensed electrician as casual labour to do electrical work. the hotel or grocery store whatever it happens to be then takes out a permit and i get around the contractor bull. anybody with factual info from the esa that can reply would be very helpful
I am not if you would be able to work at a grocery store chain or hotel chain doing electrical work just for the fact that those buildings are accessed by the general public. I know industrial is different because the building is not under normal operations accessed by the general public. Here if the plant manager feels that the broom pusher is competent to change out a 347V ballast, then legally that broom pusher can.
In responce to Thorahsparky.....I can't wait for the day that electrical materials will only be available to lisenced electricians. I am sure this issue is one that both contractors and electricians will agree on!!! I think that our market system is a little messed up when any DYI can go and buy any type of electrical equipment regardless of scope of work he will be performing and on the other end the general public needs a licence to buy hair dressing supplies such as hairspray and shampoo. Whats the deal with that??????
Following Frank, or even farmers need a license to purchase fertilizer. What it comes down to, in Ontario anyway, is that electricity hasn't killed enough people! Unfortuneatly our governments and related organizations tend to be reactive as opposed to proactive. I can see the day, but not in the near future... Another issue that needs more attention is our electrician to apprenticeship ratio. 3 to 1 (elec.:appr.) Anyone who knows some math knows that this ratio doesn't work to get more people in the trade, perhaps this is worth a new topic/post. I known in BC their ratio is one to one.
I known in BC their ratio is one to one.
FYI it is a ratio of up to two to one
http://www.safetyauthority.ca/bcsa_...rvision_Req_Under_Elec_Instl_Permits.pdf
mr_electrician said "I can't wait for the day that electrical materials will only be available to lisenced electricians. I am sure this issue is one that both contractors and electricians will agree on!!! I think that our market system is a little messed up when any DYI can go and buy any type of electrical equipment regardless of scope of work he will be performing and on the other end the general public needs a licence to buy hair dressing supplies such as hairspray and shampoo."
OK, not sure about the hairspray, but what happens when the plumbers and pipefitters say the same thing about sinks and copper piping, and p-traps and pvc and solder, and carpenters say the same thing about 2X4's and plywood and, yes, nails. C'mon, I understand your frustration, but there REALLY ARE some things a DIYer can do. Let's not get all bent out of shape. This is not magic; it's mostly no more than plain common sense. Guess I'm just not that politically correct.
Andy
I'm new at this forum so not sure how to make this stand out.
I know now that when it comes to buying things you cannot go out and buy an oil tank for your house nor an oil furnace and have them installed by a licensed person only a person with an oilburner license can buy oil related products including repair parts also now you cannot buy central air conditioning without being licensed to install
homerjones wrote: "also now you cannot buy central air conditioning without being licensed to install"
I guess I just question the wisdom of it all and what problems we solve by all the rules and also what problems we create. My home has central air (an old unit). About two years ago it quit. The local air conditioning guy wanted to do a whole bunch of stuff to fix it. Said he had to install an additional disconnect (new regs he said), replace the refrigerant (more new regs he said), estimated cost over $400, couldn't get at it for a week or so. All it needed was a new capacitor that cost less than ten dollars. So I fixed it myself. Works fine.
If the A/C end of it had been a problem, I would have had to get the unit replaced by someone licensed to deal with that. That's all I'm saying.
Cheers,
Andy
I'm new at this forum so not sure how to make this stand out.
Andy, when you reply, instead of clicking on reply, click on quote. You can remove unnecessary repetition if you want. Just don't mess with the info in brackets that open and close the quote. Try it!
Thanks for the tip Helper.. Didn't know how to do that.
Cheers,
Andy
mr_electrician said "I can't wait for the day that electrical materials will only be available to lisenced electricians. I am sure this issue is one that both contractors and electricians will agree on!!! I think that our market system is a little messed up when any DYI can go and buy any type of electrical equipment regardless of scope of work he will be performing and on the other end the general public needs a licence to buy hair dressing supplies such as hairspray and shampoo."
OK, not sure about the hairspray, but what happens when the plumbers and pipefitters say the same thing about sinks and copper piping, and p-traps and pvc and solder, and carpenters say the same thing about 2X4's and plywood and, yes, nails. C'mon, I understand your frustration, but there REALLY ARE some things a DIYer can do. Let's not get all bent out of shape. This is not magic; it's mostly no more than plain common sense. Guess I'm just not that politically correct.
Andy
I'm new at this forum so not sure how to make this stand out.
In the electrical field, we deal with the safety of property and peoples lives!! This is what the issue is. How do you cause a fire which can destroy property and kill people with hairspray, 2X4's, copper pipe and so on?? I see you are retired and I am confident that you were and are good at your trade, but these are the issues in the industry today. To many fires and deaths out there that can be prevented and limiting electrical equipment to licensed electricians is a start in the right direction.
Just to clarify... I'm not suggesting at all that any DIYer should be encouraged to install, for example, a MCC or central air or for that matter replace a furnace (electric or otherwise). But where do you draw the line when you talk about "electrical equipment" that the consumer shouldn't be allowed to buy? Does it include wire, switches, receptacles, light fixtures, breakers? All those things if improperly installed can create hazards and lead to fires, etc.
But how many of us have replaced hot water tanks or leaky faucets or added a shower in the basement or made a rec room in the basement? All areas of concern that could create hazards. What about welding machines? How many of us own them too? And having a license is no guarantee that safety will be assured. Just have a look at our highways.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating anarchy. But if Home Depot (and others) hold handyman sessions, or whatever they call them, then the least we should do is ensure that the leaders of these sessions are qualified to teach the subject matter and that the attendees know the risks involved in what they are doing. Not just the physical ones but, for example, property insurance risks. And also that their work must be inspected.
And by the way, trying to solder copper pipe close to a stud wall can certainly cause a fire. And one more thing, I don't recommend trying this, but if you take a can of hair spray, push down on the valve and hold a lighted match to the spray, you could probably weld schedule 40 pipe. Never tried it, but saw it in a safety demonstration "way back in the old days".
Have a good day,
Andy
To bring this back to the original post
My understanding from school (many years ago)...
309 could work in any environment in a contracting role.
442 were supposed to be trained and limited to the specifics of the area that they were trained in...as an example, a 442 trained in automotive could move from plant to plant that was related to automotive, they could not move to say…food processing. A steel mill guy could not move to building maintenance and no one could move into construction.
309s had more freedom to move around and could be hired by both "Industrial Employers" and ECs. The endorsements when I went to school allowed you even more mobility, so as a 309D I could work in just about any situation possible. There was no doubt that "back in the day" there was a definite difference in the training that the 442s and the 309s took. I am not sure that is the case today however. Prior, during my training 442 were not trained in services, residential wiring methods, demand calculations etc. They spent their (shorter) in school portion focusing on motor control, motor calculations, troubleshooting, etc. I don't even recall if they even did blueprint reading or not, but I don't think so.
I think that the market is so depressed for tradesmen, likely most places are happy to get a person that knows how to hold a driver…
Now to hijack the thread, I can see both side of the permit issue…I for one am totally in agreement of the permit and inspection process. I thin it is critical. What I don't agree with is now that I am not an EC I cannot work, even for my family and obtain the necessary permits aboveboard. Sure there is the whole homeowner permit process…yeh whatever, the important part is that the work is inspected and passed, and done by qualified people.
If they really want electrical work to be completed by qualified people, then as mentioned previously, they would legislate the sale of electrical equipment to certified trades only.
One of the previous posters mentioned that they are getting $2 million in PL-PD for $750 a year. Would you mind posting who you are dealing with or send me a PM on that. The last price I was quoted was $5000 per year. For $750 per year, I take that up.
Cheers
Im new here but i just have one comment about that.
How many people have died from a leaky faucet or a plugged toilet.Electricity is dangerous and if you dont know what your doing it could be deadly!!
Necessity is the mother of invention...
I would say that Economy is driving the prices , and we can't just make regulations. Unfortunatly people are poor and when you are poor you don't think about tomorow, you think about today. Safety organizations and other trades have to promote and advertize safety and regulations ( not to scare people, instead to educate them) . We need more shows of this nature.
Question: Do you think that teaching people, business people, low skill people, doctors, lawyers and who know who else know something about standards?
Answer is NO. The true is (let's take our trade as an example) they think electricity is pulling wire and connecting white to white and black to black. I can already talk for more than 45 min about code for pulling only one wire from pannel to the last receptacle. It is education what we need. Educate our clients so they can know to recognize good work from bad.
That is why DIY channels are so popular. Think about this it can work in our favour. Maybe there is a good bussinnes idea for someone.
Anyway does anyone play chess here. Electricity and chess go great together
back to the OP, the 309A, 309C, 442A & the Master Electrician
In 1992 I wrote & passed the 442A. The exam dealt with code, safety, wiring, the right hardware & connections for the right situations, industrial type electrical & electronics questions. Shortly after passing this exam I gained employment as a plant electrican (loose term). In my job I wired that darn plant from the incoming power, through the panel, to the equipment etc.
I maintained the plant electrics, as well as all the machinery & controls. I did this for 16 years - no trouble or hassle.
I am now retired & want to take the 309C - but thats not possible - so I'm told without jumping through loops
I can, says the ministry with my 442A as does the ECA website which says the same thing, to write & hopefully pass the Master Electrician Exam & paying the fees + covered earlier in this thread.
It all doesn't make sense too me.
I would as retiree like to write the 309C which would allow me to [legally] to do domestic, low rise & house electrician work.
Do I need the 309A - no way do I, since I have no intention of climbing & breaking my back or crawing through tight spaces doing hard graft.
So, does anyone know if the holder of the 442A can [with the acquired up to date knowledge & review] just write the 309C without going back to school or having to get proven construction & maintenance work experience?
I always imagined the 442A was a tougher exam than the 309A - but thats me talking
Appreciate any help on this
I live in michigan right now, my wife and I are thinking of moving to Canada for her job.im a journeyman in michigan. I was wondering if anybody knows if the schooling here and the hours would transfer to Canada? Or if I would joust have to take a test or if my license would transfer?