Do i need to protect Cat 5 when it is run outdoors, say along the house's siding? I.e., protect it from damage and/or the weather? If so, what methods recommended?

Hi Tripp,
I'd put it in some small PVC Conduit, unless the Codes where you are, ask for something heavier.

I'd go with that as well, unless you get a cable which is already intended for outdoor use (e.g. UV protected etc.).

They do make outdoor rated Cat-5, etc. Even hard usage cable for this purpose. Hard to find outside of Graybar and other Tel/data supply houses.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Now what if the Cat 5 is outside just long enough to get to the demarc? My situation is a remodel in which i am to run a new home-run from the bedroom to the demarc, which as i understand it (haven't been to the site yet) is just outside the bedroom's outside wall. Do i still need to put it in conduit? And if so, could i just use some liquidtight for the flexibility which i'm guessing will be a necessity in this case. More thoughts from anyone?

If the home has vinyl siding I will in alot of cases remove the vinyl siding and install the cat5 cable behind it. They make a siding removal tool that makes removing the siding very easy. You can pull out one section, put in the cable and put the section back. In cooler weather the siding can be a little brittle so you have to be a little carefull.
I have also done this with coax cable. Makes for a clean installation.

Now what if the Cat 5 is outside just long enough to get to the demarc?

DEMARC? Arrrff I thought this was for a network. Wish you guys would stop with the CAT 5 crap and just say what the heck you are doing. It's a friggin telephone POTS line.

As to your question, NO you don't have to protect it. Just staple it and make it look neat.

Geesh!

-Hal

Sometimes I will run the friggin telephone POTS line behind the vinyl siding to conceal it. I'm not sure what I would get from the supply house when I called and ordered some friggin telephone POTS line.

Some supply houses have stopped carrying "Plain Old Telephone Service" wire. i.e. Cat-3 and quad, or 6 conductor can rarely be found these days... Hal, Cat-5(e) has become the default... It's the way of the friggin' future....

I'm not sure what I would get from the supply house when I called and ordered some friggin telephone POTS line.

Well no doubt they need some education too! Reason why they only have CAT5 is because they hand it to you and you walk out without saying anything. If enough guys tell em they don't want friggin CAT5 for voice they might get the message. I won't even go into the huge price difference between CAT3 plenum and CAT5 plenum.

Then too I might ask why you are looking for a telecom product in an electrical supply house. Kind of like looking for electrical materials in a plumbing or HVAC supply house. What the hell would they know?

Still want to know what are you guys going to do in a few years when the norm for data is fiber.

-Hal

[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 10-30-2005).]

[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 10-30-2005).]

Hal,
I don't do that much Voice/Data work so for me the cost difference doesn't amount to much. I find it easier to just stock one type of cable that I can use for both voice and data. Cat5 cable is good for both and I only have to worry about carrying one type on my service truck. I used to carry both on my truck and used Cat3 for voice and Cat5 for computer networks but decided it was easier to stock just one. Saves space.
Does it really bother you that much when someone uses Cat5 for voice.

No offense Hal but what is the big deal with using Cat 5 for voice?
As far as I have seen lately it is the norm to run cat 5 for voice. I have even seen some people using, dare I say it ? cat 6.




[This message has been edited by mkoloj (edited 10-30-2005).]

QUOTE Now what if the Cat 5 is outside just long enough to get to the demarc?
DEMARC? Arrrff I thought this was for a network. Wish you guys would stop with the CAT 5 crap and just say what the heck you are doing. It's a friggin telephone POTS line.

As to your question, NO you don't have to protect it. Just staple it and make it look neat.

Geesh!

-Hal
QUOTE

Get off your high horse, HAL. Cat 5 cable has become the standard for voice and data cable. I think you owe this forum an apology for your bad attitude.

Does it really bother you that much when someone uses Cat5 for voice.

Yeah it does. It's a PITA to work with. It doesn't bother me if it's only a few runs but if you do a lot of voice like I do you would say the same thing.

Try terminating 100 voice jacks then punch the other ends down on 66 blocks and tell me that untwisting those tight twists isn't going to give you carpal tunnel some day.

I haven't run into it yet but it's just a matter of time until somebody wires a building for voice with the CAT6 that has the bonded and twisted pairs. Going to have to charge more or kill somebody, maybe both.

Cat 5 cable has become the standard for voice and data cable. I think you owe this forum an apology for your bad attitude.

Standard with who? Electrical contractors, computer geeks and DIY's I guess because any time I see CAT5 all over the place that's who did it. At least as an EC you should know better, those others have an excuse.

To me it's like wiring an entire house with #10. If I saw that I would think whoever did it didn't know that there are other more suitable materials available or didn't care.

I can buy the excuse that you only keep CAT5 on the truck if you don't get into this heavily but otherwise use the right cables.

-Hal

"Still want to know what are you guys going to do in a few years when the norm for data is fiber."

Bet that won't fly stapled to the side of the house...

Hal, I trust and respect your opinions truthfully, and I know this topic just eats at you... But they ask for, and pay for it, they get it. Many just for the reason that they know they can re-purpose it as the only real reason. True, the tighter twist in cat5 does make for a longer install, but I have all but stopped using 66 blocks anyway, and stick to 110 intermediates anyway. (Much easier) If its not specified in a larger job as 5, I'll run 3, but I don't keep any on the truck anymore.

Side note, lately I keep getting customers saying, "Dont worry about all the phones and data, it will all be wire-less." I look at the metal studs and concrete cielings and chuckle, as I then look at the giant radio tower outside the window. (Sure it will!)

Hal,

Maybe your situation is different but when I punch down the cables I don't untwist the pairs much, try to avoid untwisting more than a half inch of wire. It would seem to me that there isn't much untwisting to do. Is there a reason to have to untwist the pairs more than this on a regular basis?
If I run a cat5 cable to a phone location and the customer decides to put a computer there instead and wants to network it with the other computers it would seem to me that it was practical to have run the cat5. I can just swap out the 6pin jack with a 8pin and reroute the cable on the other end to the hub. Like I said before I don't do alot of this type of work so I could be wrong in my thinking. I've beenn getting most of my information from this website. http://www.jimhayes.com/uncleted/index.html
What do you think of this website?
As far as carpel tunnel goes I had surgery for that last June. Mostly from twisting all those wirenuts on I think.


[This message has been edited by A-Line (edited 10-31-2005).]

But they ask for, and pay for it, they get it.

And that's fine. The problem I have is when the installation has not been dictated many guys out of ignorance will do everything in CAT5 because that's all they know.

Voice wiring has been around way longer than CAT5, networks and computers. The same wiring used for a network can be used for voice but so can a barbed wire fence. If you don't need it why go through the extra time and effort to terminate it and spend extra money for the material?

Maybe your situation is different but when I punch down the cables I don't untwist the pairs much, try to avoid untwisting more than a half inch of wire. It would seem to me that there isn't much untwisting to do. Is there a reason to have to untwist the pairs more than this on a regular basis?

Most of our installations use 66 blocks. You need at least a couple of inches of untwisted pair to be able to hold on to the wire with your fingers so you can pull it in the slot then hook it in the clip from the top down. No problem with CAT 3. When you have all 25 pair in place you cut them all down.

If you are using 66 blocks it sounds like you are doing it the "CAT5" way. This is what you would need to do if you were using CAT5 for data and would need to maintain the CAT5 rating of the block.

Instead of untwising the pairs you pull both through a slot between two clips. You untwist enough so that you can hook one wire in the clip above going up and the other wire in the clip below going down. If you don't untwist enough to be able to do this with your fingers you will have to use your needlenose and you risk damaging the insulation if you grab the conductor before the point where it will be on the clip. Now, the big problem with this method is when you cut it down you have to remember to flip your tool over for every other clip. To say the least it's slow going and more meticulous. Not something I would want to do unless I had to.

As for Uncle Jim's site, about the only good illustration of a voice crossconnect with CAT3 cables is the picture entitled "Here's a Real World Installation". Notice the use of 89 brackets with the 66M blocks.

All of his stuff looks awful and is not something that I would try to emulate.

-Hal

66 blocks are not Cat 5 rated so it really doesn't matter much about the twist.

To the contrary there are CAT5 rated 66 blocks though I don't think any are rated CAT5e or higher. The termination method I described is what is required to maintain the CAT 5 rating.

-Hal

Hal, for a response to your less-than-helpful tirade on this forum and the other, PLEASE GO TO .....er...www.sundance-communications.com/forum.

And...why you blamin' me because you ASSumed I was talking about something I was not? Ask for clarification or more info next time.

And...try a little tenderness (sorry, that song just came over the radio and I couldn't resist.)

Tripp,
Please be careful how you word things here.
BTW, we can only give advice on the information tendered to us.
And also, I'm reminded of the phrase "If you haven't got anything nice to say.........".

"To the contrary there are CAT5 rated 66 blocks though I don't think any are rated CAT5e or higher. The termination method I described is what is required to maintain the CAT 5 rating.
-Hal "

I have not seen a 66 block to be rated for cat 5.
What would be a possible need for a 66 block to be cat 5 ?

You can always tell because they are thinner. They will be marked CAT5 on the sides. As for the use, keep in mind that there is 25 pair CAT5.

-Hal

Hal, that is new to me, but I have been out of the data biz since 97. They told me there were no 66 blocks OK for > 16mz.
Live and learn ... Thanks.

Let's try to keep it civil please folks.

I'm looking at this from two sides.

Would I run CAT5, or even CAT3 just for voice circuits? No. It's overkill, and I can see the point about making off dozens of pairs soon becoming tiring. When I think back to terminating 100-pair or more cables on the MDF of a telephone exchange, it would certainly have made the task very much harder and longer if every pair in the cable was twisted up like CAT5.

Would I use a pair in CAT5 for voice if that cable was already in use or to be installed for data? Quite probably. If you have 4-pairs with only two in use running to the right location, why not make use of the spare pairs?

I think it comes down to a matter of balance.

I know that there is 25 and even 300 pair cat 5.
But what is the use for it ??

To consolidate multiple 4 pair network cables by running the 25 pair and then using the cat 5 66 block to branch out to 4 pair cables that end up at the user location ???
Seems like more trouble than it is worth.

As for using a spare pair from a network cable to run a voice circuit to a location, I would be careful of that to make sure the network isn't 1000base-t which uses all 4 pairs.

To consolidate multiple 4 pair network cables by running the 25 pair and then using the cat 5 66 block to branch out to 4 pair cables that end up at the user location ???

That's pretty much it though I have never had to do it or use a 66 block for CAT5.

I agree with you about using the two spare pairs- only in desperation.

-Hal

Not even in desperation Hal, the right thing to do is run another cable and keep the voice and data on seperate cables, talk about convergence, this is coming from a guy who doesn't like VOIP because "it is designed to put voice guys out of business".
You don't want to use the TCP\IP protocol to transmit voice so why would you use their cable to transmit voice ???

They always told us not to put POTS on the same cable as data. The ringing current was supposed to cause data errors. I imagine that depends on if you have inductive ringers and how often the phone rings in a day. You would probably never notice it in a home network but if you had a bunch of users banging the LAN and the phone never stops ringing it could be an issue.

A desperate situation to me might be something like a temporary connection to keep someone going until a voice line could be replaced. I have to say that I never had to do this either. It is common to find some IT's and DIY's guilty of this though. They can't seem to stand those 2 pair going to waste.

-Hal

I would probably do it myself in my own office or home if I was out of pairs but I certainly wouldn't sell it to someone else.

Siemon and Leviton both produce Cat5e rated 66 blocks. The pin spacing differs from the Cat5 rated blocks, but otherwise they are identical. Not sure I see a real need, though.

As to the topic, I'll use a short length of CMR/CMX Cat5E to bring in multiple lines from the NID, in the case of a small business or residence that has 2-8 POTS lines. Immediately dump to a 66 once inside. The PVC jacket on "regular" Cat5e eventually becomes brittle and falls away when exposed to the elements.

[This message has been edited by slorch (edited 11-02-2005).]

Since this has come up a couple of times it looks like some clarification is in order.

CMR/CMX listed cable is not necessarily intended for outdoor use or resistant to sunlight.

CMR is communications riser and CMX is communications limited use within dwelings. The "X" does NOT mean exterior or outdoor.

A listed cable for use outdoors may say "outdoor" on it but usually it's only described for such use in the manufacturers literature. The CMR/CMX printed on it means nothing in this respect.

There is no UL or NEC requirement that any LV communications cable be specifically listed for outdoor use nor is any LV communications cable prohibited from being used outdoors.

-Hal

Now that I look closely at my Siemon catalog I see that they make an M series M66 block that is rated cat 5e and is said to be ok for voice and data, they also make a B series s66 block that is rated cat 5 and is said to be ok for use with only voice. Still I have a hard time finding a need for cat 5 or 5e on a 66 block.

As for the outdoor cable I saw outdoor cat 5e in Homey D that was not flooded, I also took a look at the Commscope website and saw a flooded outdoor cat 5e. As for what it was marked it did not specify. Another detail that I did not see is anything about UV resistance.

I remember a time a couple of years ago that I left a box of cat 5e in a van overnight on a cold winter day. The next day I grabbed one of the boxes and the jacket on the cable was so brittle that it cracked. It also says right on a box of Mohawk cable that it should not be installed below 32 degrees F.

For UV resistance all I have to do is remember when I worked for the cable companies.

Where white coax was previously used on the outside of a house such that it received direct sunlight exposure it was only a year or two before the white PVC jacket became brittle, cracked and the cable had to be replaced.

Where black coax was used it would last for many, many years thus we had a policy of using only black cable on the outside, much to some homeowner's irritation.

The same holds true for ty-raps, we always use black outside, the natural colored ones will deteriorate in sunlight also.

None of these cables or ty-raps were labeled "sunlight resistant" however it is common knowledge that black will not allow UV to penetrate like white. Colors will have a lifespan somewhere between black and white depending on their UV absorption but it is not advisable to use them outdoors at least where they are exposed to sunlight.

Problem is find some black CAT5. Unless it is I doubt it will be permanent where exposed to direct sunlight. I have a sample of a 2 pair CAT3 cable that is available in black and I believe 4 pair also. Verizon uses it to go from the outdoor demarc into the house.

You make a good point about low temperatures also. There are cables available that are made for "low temperature handling". The cables that I have seen this problem with seem only to be UTP. If you are going to install it in unheated space or even if you store it in your truck in the cold you don't want one that will crack on you.

I think you have to go out of your way to find a "cold weather" UTP cable because most is installed inside. You don't have this situation with coax and I have never had a problem with cold weather being a problem with it.

I had this problem when I brought a reel of cable inside from the truck one cold day. I was stapling it and with each staple the jacket cracked like an egg shell. So, this is not the kind of cable you would want to use outside unless it is Florida.

Whenever you see a flooded cable it is usually intended for burial applications and as such wouldn't be exposed to sunlight. So flooded isn't necessarily an outdoor cable either.

-Hal





[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 11-02-2005).]

Here is the Commscope Cat 5e outdoor flooded that comes in only black : http://websvr.commscope.com/CommSco...066976693852569810059cbe4/$FILE/5EF4.pdf

I tried looking for a Cat 3 because after all it is just for frigging POTS lines but came up empty handed for information with Commscope but Superior Essex has something that looks like it will do the job: http://www.superioressex.com/products/osp/spec-sheet/universal.pdf

Both of these cables are rated for exposure to sunlight and have jackets that help block out moisture.
So after all of this it looks like there is more to just stapling it and making it look neat and there are concerns with mother nature and there is specific cable addressing these issues with running to the outdoor demarc.




[This message has been edited by mkoloj (edited 11-03-2005).]

That Commscope 5e looks like it will do the job. The Superior Essex is the usual aerial drop wire with fiberglass strength members for going from the pole to house. Not really suited for anything else.

The sample I have here is made by General Cable #110417E3. It is a 2 pair CAT3 and is marked "CMX-OUTDOOR-CMR" This one happens to be a light beige in color but I have also seen it in black. It has a really nice thick outer jacket. I suspect that it is a custom for the telcos since I haven't seen it listed on their site.

-Hal

That cable you have is definitely telco special as I have seen numerous times a 2 pair in black used by Verizon in NYC.
It has Verizaon printed on the jacket.

I love the way I have seen it put in a couple of times, one guy is on the floor they need to install a new line on, he stands at the window with the box of cable and grabs the loose end, he then proceeds to drop the box out the window to his partner on the sidewalk, they fasten it at the top and bottom as far as they can reach without a ladder then penetrate thru a hole drilled in the window sill, and staple away to the location.

They learned that technique from us when we were wiring Yonkers in the 80's.

-Hal

FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


[This message has been edited by mkoloj (edited 11-03-2005).]

Hello everyone.

It has been a few days/weeks since I posted &/or viewed the forums, so forgive me for the latency on this first part of my message.

< Moderator Hat = ON >

Please, Please, Please try to keep the heated discussions to a minimum (temperature wise and reply wise).

Remember, there are People joining in + viewing these threads to learn, and eventually share, so let's not scare anyone off with flame wars.

OK, with that said ...

< Moderator Hat = OFF >

Had my own little "CAT-5" tirade earlier this week, and the Apprentice who has been working with me lately, got a good laugh out of it!
(He did make a comment today, that so far he has learned a whole lot more than expected to, and on more than just power systems installations!)

This project is a groundwater cleanup pump station deal-ee' o bob
(Replenish the contaminated ground water - via well pumps and water treatment equipment - all automatic... typical situations found at old Gasoline stations, but on a larger scale).

It has an Analog MODEM for status reports, which talks to the Service Company via a simple POTS 2 wire pipe. The MODEM is an external US Robotics 56KBPS X2.

When ordering the cable to get to the NID, I requested something simple - like CAT-3 UTP with CMR /MPR jacket. The guy taking the order searched the inventory database, and even the warehouse ... no CAT-3. Gazillions of boxes of CAT-5, in all flavors and colors - so I reluctantly agree to order CAT-5 for this _Very Low Speed_ Analog connection.

When the material is delivered, I find the UTP to be CAT-5e! On goes the tirade about using only the blue pair of the 4 pairs, the price paid for an unachievable throughput, yadda,yadda,yadda - not to mention the extra effort involved with terminating the 5e!

The Apprentice was both laughing and interested, which made me start laughing!
So the tirade lasted a whole 2 minutes before it became a technical discussion (with random transient tirades included).

This project is one of the several Electrical Design / Builds I am involved with currently, so this Apprentice is learning some of the Electrical Engineering related side of the trade, and just what is involved with Clients, Vendors, Plan Check, etc.

All together, it's a great learning experience for the Person ... and for myself, too!

Leaving the Podium now...

Scott35

I think there's a tendency these days for people to have a quest for speed even in applications which just don't warrant it. (Although it's not helped by some of the horrendous protocols which involve transferring vast numbers of bytes for very little actual useful data..... ).

One of my computer/software contracts is for the local taxi company. Being a rural area which goes very quiet at night, they transfer dispatch operations to the owner's home all but Friday and Saturday evenings. At the moment, the entire bookings database ZIPs to about 50KB on average, and is tranferred over a simple dial-up link at 9600 bps. Slow by current standards, but perfectly adequate for the application, and only takes a few seconds to complete the transfer.

On a related issue over cable types, we're just seeing ADSL rolling out around here, so I've had a few installs.

Why do some folk insist that the cable from the TelCo's network interface to their ADSL jacks "absolutely must" be CAT5?

Where I live we're already running through almost 5 miles of assorted telephone cables just to get here from the central office, and some of that stuff is decades old multi-pair cable, long before CAT5, CAT3, or CAT-anything else was ever dreamed about.

Do they really think that after 5 miles of regular old telephone cable that running the last 25 ft. in CAT5 is going to make a difference?

You will discover that you can't get DSL unless you are pretty close to a fiber hub. The same is somewhat true of 56kb service too. You won't have "miles" of old pulp cable in there for either service.

I've seen similar General Cable product at HD, although it is 4-pair Cat5E rated. Same beige color, and the jacket feels like silicon. Almost slippery. Marked as "Sunlight and Oil Resistant" if memory serves. The packaging also states it is suitable for "Short outdoor runs", although "short" is not defined.

As to cracking in cold weather, I always try to bring reels inside first thing, and give them an hour or so to warm up. Not really possible on a small job, so I'll bring a couple inside overnight and load them in the morning. Front floor of the van helps keep them toasty.

Boxes are worse. Bring them in out of the cold and let them sit for an hour. Then stick your hand in through the carry hole, and it's still cool inside!

I've seen outside plant telephone cable specifications that say it complies with Cat 3 (from at least two different cable manufacturers).

I can't remember who they were, though.

Standard DSL is good for 3 miles of copper, give or take a little depending on the wire gauge and line conditions.

Here's a good write-up:
http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213915,00.html


[This message has been edited by electech (edited 11-29-2005).]

Why even waste good CAT 3 for phone lines? Good ole 22/4 burglar alarm wire works just fine!

Yeah, it's Teflon coated to make pulling it easier.

Teflon, it's the way of the future.
Just like Cat 3 was 20 years ago.