http://www.ablecomm.com/bnewneatpowf.html
I saw this product offered and it left me wondering how this could be done? Also can anyone elaborate or has anyone heard of such a thing as the "protective plastic sleeve to cover the phone wiring if it has to pass though the wall box, as required by the National Electric Code."

Here is a Leviton PDF for the product. http://assets.twacomm.com/pdf/24628.pdf

steve

So I take it from the instructions for this device that it is ok to have power and telephone in the same box as long as you have the plastic protective tubing on the phone cable and maintain .25" from the 120V conductors??

NEC 800-52(a)1(c)1 exceptions say it's ok.

steve

First time I saw one I said "No way"!

It has two options:

Phone wires inside the outlet box.

And Phone wires stubbed out throught the rock below the edge of the box.

I prefer the later.

Thank you gentlemen for your responses I was looking for solutions to this problem with the "wall wart" having the wire strung across the wall to an outlet. It looks like I have found it, anyone think of any other possible solutions that are compliant?

Never done it but I see no reason you couldn't run CL2 wiring to the phone jack location with the telephone wiring. Splice it onto a tail with the power plug on it made by cutting the cord from the original transformer. Exit the jack the same way these guys do it and plug it into the phone. You could then locate the transformer in the basement or some other suitable location.

-Hal

I like that idea would save the $30 for that leviton plate

Matter of fact you could put the power on the black/yellow pair if you are using 22ga quad IW and the situation permits. That's what we used to do with the old Princess and other phones with lighted keypads. Tip/ring on red/green, 10vac from a plug-in transformer on the black/yellow.

-Hal

hbiss, are you saying that most or all of the phones that normally need a wall-wart are designed to alternatively take power from the black/yellow pair?

I dont think he is trying to say that all phones were designed to take power from the 2nd pair he is saying that you could put the transformer that some phones have and locate the transformer remotely and send the power over the blk\yel pair and terminate the plug you cut off the transformer onto that pair and you have eliminated the unsightly "wall wart" wire strung between your wall mounted phone and the nearest electrical outlet. Now this makes me thing about voltage drop across the run how long of a run can you have without having to worry about it affecting the operation of the set?

I was reading an article, (mabey linked from another thread) on the history of Quad wire, and it described just that. Red and green for the phone, and black yellow as power for a lighted phone. Not sure if it can still be done..... But it was done at one point in history. (I'm a young guy, 35, and wouldn't know when that stopped. But have not seen it in my career.)
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Oh wait, some KSU, and PBX systems send power ad data/signaling on other pairs.

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-28-2005).]

Yes the phone systems do send power over another pair but the wall wart transformers are a Class 2 power supply and the wiring has to be rated for that. Which I don't think cat 3 or cat 5 is rated for, but I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by mkoloj (edited 01-28-2005).]

What would concern me about that installation is the proximity of the transformer to the phone itself. Depending on how sensitive the phone is to RF you could have a serious humming noise all over your phone lines.

Wouldn't it be easier to just locate the transformer remotely and run the 9 or 12 volt cables to the phone wall plate?

All you would need is a variety of connector options on the plate as many cordless phones and answering machines don't get fed via a pair on the phone jack but rather use a normal round DC connector.

I also wouldn't particuarly like the idea of a transformer burried in the wall where it might be covered up by insulation. Far safer just plugged in to an outlet.

Can't see that device working in Europe with 230V 50Hz systems. It's not usually legal to run phone and power cables in the same box.

transformers are a Class 2 power supply and the wiring has to be rated for that. Which I don't think cat 3 or cat 5 is rated for, but I could be wrong.

Communications cables are usually listed as CM. Table 725.61 allows CM to be substituted for CL2.

-Hal

[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited 01-29-2005).]

That doesn't sound right to me to be putting that 9 or 12vdc over a pair of #24. I also vaguely remember reading in another sparky forum about cat 5 being used as doorbell wire and someone (I won't mention names ) was holding his ground about using the correct wire for the correct application and I definitely don't feel comfortable having my tip and ring within the same jacket as the 12 vdc that is giving the phone power, I personally like the idea that was presented before using a CL2 rated cable used to locate the transformer remotely.

I use 24ga or 22ga cat 5 for doorbells a lot! (Almost always) As I usually attempt the sale of an expensive intercom, and if they bite, I don't have to re-pull wire. I leave one behind the strike too for door release and spares. http://www.siedleusa.com/home/sbin/siedleusa.asp

(For some of those units you have to have spec'ed wire - but most of the smaller "2-wire video units will operate fine with cat-5)

...I won't mention names

Yup, that would be me.

No, I don't like to see wiring that is intended for one purpose being use for something unrelated.

Cat5 is a communications cable and it gets confusing if it is used for doorbell, thermostat etc. This aside from the fact that the conductors are 24ga and can't handle much current. If you parallel them it gets really confusing to somebody who didn't install it. My philosophy is to use communications cables for communications and the proper cable for other uses. This way you can see at a glance what's what.

As to using the second pair on quad cable for power, I really don't have a problem with it (and the use is related too). Note this is 22ga quad (2 pair) that I'm talking about not 24ga 4 pair cat3 or cat5.

If you look at the cord that is supplied with the transformer it probably is 22ga. Granted it is only about 6 feet long but the power consumption isn't great either.

I can't see the objection to having the 12VDC and the T/R under the same jacket. We know that even low voltage AC will not be a hum problem because this is done routinely. Certainly then DC will not be a problem.

If you are worried about crosses, 12VDC would not even begin to bother the phone if applied across the T/R which normally works with 48VDC.

I'm only pointing this out as one possible way to do this which may be more convenient than a separate wire sometimes. If you are more comfortable with separate wiring that's fine.

-Hal

"If you are worried about crosses, 12VDC would not even begin to bother the phone if applied across the T/R which normally works with 48VDC."

Not to mention that the ringer signal is usually 85-90 Volts AC. So all the phone equipment is rated well in excess of 12VDC.

The black wire in phone cable showed up with the Princess phone, specifically for the light ("It's little, it's lovely and it lights"). Nobody really thought folks would have 2 lines in a home in those days. The older station wire was just red/green/yellow with the 3d wire used for selective ringing in party line service.

I have a Western Electric 500 set dated 1962 and that has just a 3-conductor red/green/yellow cord fitted for such use.

I also have a Princess phone with the lamp wired to yellow/black. The lamp feed actually goes via a series resistor which is shunted by a pair of hookswitch contacts so that the lamp runs runs dimly when the phone is on-hook (there is also a cut-off switch in series with the resistor to turn off the "night light" feature).

As I understand it the original power units employed for these phones had relatively high-impedance secondaries to limit the current in the event of a short or cross with the red/green C.O. pair.

I still have a couple "princess" wall warts around here somewhere. (Ma Bell beige)

Telecom/ITE standard UL60950 requires Reinforced insulation between a 120v primary circuit and a TNV circuit (POTS is TNV3). Reinforced insulation requires a distance through insualtion of 0.4mm. I think the protective sleeve just ensures this .4mm requirement is met without relying on the existing phone wiring - probably a good idea.

One thing that really caught my eye was the statement, "This product is compliant with UL 1863, UL 60950, FCC part 15 Sub-part B class B and FCC part 68". "Is compliant" could be taken to mean "listed to"...or not. I know from experience with one NRTL, there are certain types of products that the particular NRTL (that shall remain nameless) will not give a listing to, even though the product may meet all applicable safety requirements. Some things just make some people too nervous.

OK, somone buy one of these so we can check it out! Just kidding, but I would be curious to see if it has any safety/NRTL marks. If it was submitted for TIA/EIA/IS-968 (formerly FCC part 68) then there should be a traceable ID number on the product somewhere.

Neat product though.

I saw a dual compartment "old work" box the other day at the BORG that would allow 120v and LV in a double wide cover. The line voltage side was full sized and the difference was made up on the LV side