We all know Mike Holmes, the Canadian GC, from his TV show. Well, I've just read his book "Make It Right," and I found his section on "Hire Right" to be most interesting.

He argues spelling out, in great detail, what he is quoting. He specifies the work, the methods, the materials.

Here, many (including myself) have advocated making the quote vague, to avoid giving the customer a 'shopping list.' Mike says that's not good enough. To quote from his book:

"If I'm doing a bathroom, I'll tell you everything about those tiles: what material they are, how much grout they'll need, the type of thinset I'll use, how I'll prep the floor. My quote shows the square footage of insulation, vapor barrier, and drywall; the linear footage of trim, how many doors, doorknobs, and handles, the style and price of the faucets and shower heads- every detail is in writing."

Another interesting quote refers to his approach to 'negotiation:' I will present a price. This price is not negotiable. I do not present you with a higher price so we can negotiate down to my real price. I give you a set price. ...... If people can't afford my quote, they have two options. Wait, continue to save .... (or) Look within my quote to see if there's anything you can do without."

Well, what do you think of his approach?

I think it is a TV show. (somewhere between "flip this house" and "Rocky and Bullwinkle")

My wife was the super on a couple of "habitat" houses, that was televised and what you saw on TV had nothing to do with actually building the house. When I asked the producer he said it was just entertainment, not a documentary or an educational program.

Speaking strictly WRT Holmes on Homes:

It's VERY apparent that he targets jobs started by unlicensed contractors -- of which Ontario, Canada, seems to have no limit.

Canada is reaching the end of its own super construction boom -- years and years after America.

And during this boom, all of the screwy construction gambits we so know and love south of the 49th parallel have found their place in the Great White North.

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More than a few of his shows revolve around GC's taking on work they can't possibly get a handle on -- just so that they can get a fresh chump to hand them a fat deposit -- and then advance funds out of all proportion to the job completion.

Holmes even once flew to LA to take over a fiasco in Los Angeles.

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And normally the story is always that the HO was trying to get it done on the cheap -- typically working without a building permit/ inspections -- with the results being a pie-in-the-face.

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As for his 'bidding' logic: his SHOW is picking up ALL of his expenses: he's in show business!

You see the same crazed tempo all over the DIY channel. Of course, it stands in studied contrast to how a REAL DIY project unfolds: slowly, haltingly... until it/ they run out of gas.

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Reality bites: You just can't expect HOs to NOT free-ride any design advice. It's the ONE THING that they can't get right themselves. It's the core reason for your economic being: your knowledge base.

The NEC is written as gobble-di-gook for a reason. It's so that only people knowledgeable in the art can make any sense of it. ( You see that whenever attorneys write up anything. )

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A workable solution is to have a General Standards of Work which you can self-publish with a laser printer/ inkjet. In it you detail the quality of materials ( specification grade ? ) methods, ( EMT/ MC/ Romex ) etc. that constitute your operational art.

Specifically state that there will ALWAYS be someone able to quote underneath you. However, any such APPARENT cost savings come at their own price: surprises and extras... hack production values that REDUCE the value of your home comes the day you have to sell -- and their inspector arrives. ( At which point, you discover what has to be removed/ entirely rebuilt/ upgraded -- to meet the market's expectation. )

[ I spent two man-weeks ripping out 'expert' 'self-help' DIY wire-hacking at my sister's home, year ago. She managed to knock down the asking price $90,000 -- in a hot real estate market -- because of the visible code violations/ hack work -- aka cabling crime.]

Because of this dynamic, I photograph shody work and use it to illustrate to prospects just how crappy work can get -- yet pass inspection.

Another factor: wire sizing. NEC permits entirely uneconomic, undersized conductors. It's drafted to stop fires/ injuries. It does not, in any way, attempt to size conductors for best economic performance.

So it permits #12 when the math says #10 is economic. The cost of electric power is so high relative to the cost of up-sizing home runs only an idiot/ HO would scrimp on copper. All of the expense is in the labor -- all of the performance is in the conductor.

( Upsizing usually pays all of its expense back in less than eighteen months. Where else can you earn 66% per annum on a AAA credit risk? )

If anyone were to detail their bids in the manner of Holmes DIYers will take that as proof that they're idiots to hire on a 'free design team.' The idea that the design is zero cost is, of course, promoted by the big box retailers and the national manufacturers. For them, it's an annoyance that ANY labor is required to install their products.

That wire thing might be right on an HVAC compressor or other large fixed load but most 15 and 20a circuits are loaded fairly lightly most of the time.

OK, let's have a reality check here ....

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day .... whatever else one might say about Mr. Holmes, he's put an idea out there that I think merits discussion.

So, he has a TV show. I have a cat. What's that got to do with anything? The man has written a book, and put forth his thoughts. I selected just one of those thoughts for discussion in this thread.

Ironically, some of the critical comments parrot some of Mike's other thoughts. One example: he advocates always doing better than code minimum.

TV show or not, the man does actually have a contracting business - and he was contracting long before he ever had a TV show.

I would think the membership here would be more sympathetic to his views. I can't speak for others, but I watch his show, and it's like watching a diary of my life, sorting out some layer cake of kludge just to get things working.

More germane is the matter of quotes, which is one key element in how we deal with customers. That fine art is what makes a sale happen, and what leads to a happy customer at the end of it all- or, not.

Oddly enough, I cannot tell for the comments above whether anyone agrees with Mike's take on quotes - or if they disagree.

Anyone care to try again?

If you don't want to be paid for the design part of your job, you can give the design for free and only charge for the labour. If you want to be paid for design and labour, you shouldn't do either until you have a contract. Quotes must be specific, but they don't need be "how to" guides.

The part about never negotiating price just means that he is uncompromising. It doesn't really mean it's a fair price.

TV only shows the parts that make the actor's look good. You won't see the scene where the customer refuses to pay a bill for a bunch of extras.

Greg, I'm biased because of my commercial back round.

Our circuits are typically very long compared to residential dimensions.

I've even had the weird experience of having to twin up #10 home-runs / splitting a 12A 208 V load in half -- because it was THAT far away from the panel. The CWA wouldn't tolerate anything less. (!)

As for e-economics, in my area, the PUC is determined to ramp kW-Hr rates into orbit. My McMansion neighbors are already paying $ 0.45 per marginal kW-Hr, in the summer. At such rates, ANY lost energy due to code minimum wire sizing looks bad.

We pay the same for wire as you... But our e-rates are in orbit.

Right now, spas and hot tubs are being listed 'free' all over my local CraigsList. It's the power bill. They were bought at a time when power rates were one fourth the current marginal cost. (!)

I expect that Someone will wake up and start retrofitting such loads with heat pumps. No one in Greater Sacramento uses a hot tub in the snow. So heat pumps are wildly favored for the lowest cost Btus for heating water.

Beyond that, maybe there's a way that HOs can set up solar-heated spa-water on the cheap. Such a system would no longer need high pressures -- not even perfect integrity.

But, it looks like electrically heated hot tubs are being driven out of the market by politics.

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As I said, Reno, you just can't win when you provide blow-by-blow specs for a small residential project.

Instead, everyone must use boiler plate. I rather suspect that Holmes has boiler-plated his construction standards, too.

It's something that the big fellas have done for a long, long time. It's time every EC does the same.

It's one way of stepping clear of the trunk-slammers.

And say it plain: good work is ALWAYS underbiddable. There are SO MANY corners that can be cut. Slipshod is simply not our game.

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The ultimate make or break for most ECs is screw-ups. Stuff like bidding errors, re-work, inspection failures, omitted critical materials...

If you NEVER suffer such dings, chances are that you'll survive.

To pull that off means to walk away from teaser bidding -- on work that is too far outside your scope of confidence. In today's economy, being aggressive is suicide.

I particularly chuckle at ECs who seriously think that GCs have a legitimate need to swell the ranks of their EC subs. The reality is they've burned their prior subs, one way or another. No EC is so overbooked that their client-GCs must be turned away. No, the number of GCs bankrupting their subs is simply exploding. That's the way of the world. The tip-off: they always chase fresh blood before they implode.

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Mike made the transition to TV when his local market was absolutely booming.

We all should be so lucky.

As I have never seen this show, it's hard to make any comments, other than on what is posted here.

One of the projects that I was working on, as EC, was a design/build for a tenant expansion. (TV studio). Over a four month period, with about 80 hours into it, a final design was achieved and budget costs finalized. "Hold" was requested for approx 60 days to secure the financing. An addendum was drafted regarding market pricing increases on items, and accepted.

During the hold period, I sold my EC operation, and passed on the above, along with the client base. Two weeks after the 'hold' was over, we found out that the job was awarded to someone else, at about $500 less. (Job was $235K+/-)

Yes, D/B was done for a fee, and it was paid. My point...full details....???

My second point, not even a phone call to ask..'can a better $$$ be made'!!!

I hear what Reno is saying, but!

Well, let's look at an example; the job is running power for a new air conditioner.

Contractor #1 provides a quote that reads: "Power for new air conditioner $300."

Contractor #2 provides a quote that reads:
"Power for the new air conditioner will be taken from the interior panel. Wiring method will be cable for the 27-ft. inside portion of the run, where I will transition to EMT for the outside run to the disconnect. The disconnect will be a Square D QO200TR, with an HACR-rated breaker in place of the simple switch provided with the unit. The whip to the unit will be supported, and have a metal liner.
"All holes will be patched in a manner appropriate for the wall material, and fire sealing will be done where needed. If you have some matching paint, we will even paint the patches; otherwise we will use an appropriate primer.
"Before work begins we will obtain the permit. We will close off the work area and use tarps to contain any construction mess. At the end of the job we will clean up, and remove all trash, with larger items hauled away. Shrubbery will be protected, or pulled away from the work area.
"Work will be performed weekdays, with our crew on site no earlier than 8:30AM and no later than 9AM. Work will be completed, and the area cleaned up, no later than 4PM of each work day. Our trucks will not block your driveway.
"We ask that you allow our workers access to a bathroom.
"You will not be disturbed by loud radios or music.
"For this project, our price is $300."
"(Attached is a sketch of our proposed wire routing and schedule)."

Now ... which quote do you like?

Reno:
No question on my part....contractor #2 provided most of the details, and added a few that most people (IMHO) do not think about.

The only thing lacking is the amperage of the feeder and the OCP (LOL)

Let the opinions follow....

Reno: What about designing a lighting layout for a kitchen? They could hire a designer or an electrician. Should the electrician provide the design for free? The designer wouldn't.

By the time you get the specs for the lights and discuss all the options with the customer, you could have a lot of time invested in the job. It would be a shame to have the customer give your drawing to your competitors.

If you hand over too many details, it will eventually happen.

Maybe it's a question of wording. Your quote needs to be specific. It doesn't need to be too detailed. I would include "vapour barriers" in the quote, but not how I get them around a fished outlet.

There's another element to quotes that we're ignoring: the fact that folks DO compare quotes. Let's look into that for a second.

Say a customer gets three quotes: low, medium, and high. How is one to choose?

If the quotes don't spell things out, the customer is not any closer to getting the job done. He has no way of telling what was left out or misunderstood by the contractors. It's a crapshoot.

The customer simply must be able to tell, from the quote, what the price represents. The 'right' quote is the one that best describes what the customer is asking for.

We've all been there ... we go into a car dealer looking for a 4-door sedan, and the clown shows us coupes and station wagons. You know you're off to a bad start, because -obviously- the salesman either didn't listen, or doesn't care.

Now ... for the next hurdle:
"I didn't think it would cost so much."
Where do we go from here?

Again, the quote points the customer in the right direction(s). Either find the money, or scale back your needs.

Using the example I created earlier, our customer can reduce his cost by, perhaps, doing his own patching. Maybe a cheaper disconnect. Maybe relocating the air conditioning compressor. The point is that the detail let's the customer continue to look for a way to deal with you, rather than simply discarding your quote as 'too high.'

Perhaps we overlook that the quote isn't just a figure on paper .... it CAN be a sales tool. By describing the job in detail, you're letting the customer know you were listening, and that you care.

BTW ... did anyone else notice what I left out in the detailed quote? I just did, right now. I didn't say a word about the required service receptacle. There's a problem waiting to bite you. One has to be thinking about the details to catch that .... and the guy who gave 'just the minimum' also gave no clue whetherhe overlooked that receptacle as well.

The ONLY part of a quote that does any selling is lowest price.

The selling of competence, quality, TIMELINESS, is outside the quote.

HMH re-awarded a casino e-contract -- at a price bump of 2.7x -- to get TIMELY completion. Each day saved was worth a GC specific bonus of $100,000 per DAY.

Since the job was, cost-passed-thru, it was a no brainer.

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When a bid of $ xyz,000 is underbid by $ 500 -- the bid was simply redirected to a buddy. No way did the winning bidder NOT have access to the original bid.

This usually takes the form of:"You've got the job, if and only if, you beat Joe's number... $ yxz,000."

And the reply: " Okay, $ xyz,000 - less $ 500... Done."

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There is no way on this green Earth that I'd ever detail a bid per Reno's post.

Within his quote is enough information to entirely close the gap between his knowledge and that of a seasoned apprentice with time on his hands -- and no design skills.

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Which brings me to another beef: too many apprentices are being trained relative to the needs of the trade. Because wire is being eliminated from intra-home telecommunications there is a global glut of wire running talent.

Permitting trunk-slammers to stay in our trade is the height of folly.

The essence of craft skill is routing knowledge, not muscle-memory. Don't share it in your quote.

You can't win by doing so.

There will ALWAYS be a price-cutter out there willing to jump on your installation solution.

Ours is, generally, NOT a repeat business. Deal with it.

In fact, a Really great electrician is never needed again -- by definition.

Tesla said:
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When a bid of $ xyz,000 is underbid by $ 500 -- the bid was simply redirected to a buddy. No way did the winning bidder NOT have access to the original bid.

This usually takes the form of:"You've got the job, if and only if, you beat Joe's number... $ yxz,000."

And the reply: " Okay, $ xyz,000 - less $ 500... Done."

That's understood!

The gripe was/is....there was no contact between the client and myself, or the EC that I sold to. It would have been nice for a phone call, or email indicating a 'lower' cost for the project, and could it be 'matched'!!!

No sense beating a dead horse though.

That's the same behaviour that is being complained about - taking a quote and showing it to the competition.

Agree 100%+ on the subject. I just threw this in to create discussion.

Frankly, I was shocked at the minimum difference, based on the O/A job budget. There was 'wiggle room'!!

I guess I have been too isolated from this to have offered an opinion. I am sorry if I was flip about it. In my additions I already had the plans and the engineering before I got the bid and I already knew who I was going with so it was really just a formality.
I understand the frustration of the contractors tho, if your customer were using the free bid as a design plan to go shopping with.

I still wonder if that is the way Holmes did business when he was still making a living as a contractor. Once these guys start being TV stars, I think their whole outlook changes.

Greg, maybe it will help if you think of Mike as just another successful contractor who has written a book.

Mike's attitudes, if his story is to be believed, are something he was raised with; he learned the trade from his father. Not many of us can say that. A lot of my stumbles are clearly because I'm learning as I go along.

Mike has many interesting ideas in his book, and his take on quotes is only one. You can be sure I'll be bringing up other positions in new threads; I just want this thread to run the course first.

I would not have brought in his attitude towards negotiating over the quote, except that negotiating is so much a part of the quote process.

It appears that most responses disagree with Mike's "be detailed" position, but also agree with his 'don't dicker' position. If life were logical, half the responses ought to show support for the man, rather than the uniform cynicism.

IMO, "Make it Right" is a worthy read for everyone here. Find it at your local home center. I find it to be a gold mine of information - not about materials and methods, but about running a business.

twh ... let's consider a little psychology for a moment.

The customer sees you specify that you will put in vapor barriers; the other guy is silent. Maybe that will get the customer wondering if the other guy left them out .... and once doubt takes root, there's no way the other guy will get the job. There's also a good feeling developing, because you're the guy he can talk to.

That's it!!! We should write a book. Then we can set the world straight.

Many times I have had the thoughts of writing a book about what I see and deal with everyday....but, I feel most would not believe.

My sister always thought about writing a book about her experiences in Nursing.
She told me that we could all write books about what we do but we'd have to catalog them all as 'fiction'...because nobody would believe the stuff we have to deal with.

LOL

A friend is a roofer. I argued often that he was putting far too much detail and data into his [free] quotes- [he built 2 roofing jobs for me and I make his bespoke roof windows]. He stopped when it came to light that at least two clients had used his detailed quotes to source cheaper labor and materials elsewhere - on the basis that all the planning work had already been done, they could source special offers from his lists and employ amateurs!

I opened this thread putting forth the published opinions of Mike Holmes. Whatever else you might say about Mike, he's a real contractor with a real business, so he is certainly qualified to speak.

I had other reasons as well.

One is that I have seen comments like Alan's here several times, and Mike's is directly opposite.

Now, as I am in the customers' shoes, remodeling my house, I need more from the contractor than just a dollar amount. It's not that I'm looking for a shopping list; rather, it's that I need to know if he's pricing by using a Yugo or a Porsche.

Bid details will also identify the scope of the job, possibly underscoring where there are misunderstandings, and clarifying who is responsible for what. For example: is that a high efficiency furnace or a standard one? Does the price include a cememt pad and steel cage for the air conditioner? Etc.

Case in point: Adding a new window. One guy wanted $1000 more than the other. Care to guess which one included the framing, and which one simply planned on slipping the window into a hole made by someone else?

Another point shows the difference between home inspections, usually performed by private-party HI's, and a "Holmes inspection" documenting evidence of inspector negligence during the charitable-foundation remodel.

The viewer is shown the empirical incompetence of Home Inspectors in North America, who repeatedly fail to provide any negotiating leverage before buyers purchase these residential train wrecks.

If sellers wait for the right buyer to miss the defects and pay cash, mortgage insurance is also avoidable, and no record exists of any previous failed inspections when performed by private HI's.

What Holmes does not explain, is how buyers can convince sellers to let city or fire-marshal inspectors (AHJ) on premise after private HI's find problems, so public records and corrections are enforceable.

With public-budget crisis taking cue from the private sector, and eviscerating labor and experience in building departments, the superior experience of the AHJ inspector may also become less clear.

Getting, perhaps, back on the topic of quotes ...

I had an interesting chant with some folks yesterday. While the 'technical' part of the job involved replacing a roof, the story brought up some points regarding quotes.

Just how do we arrive at our pricing? How do we present it to the customer?

Now, I'm accepting the story at face value, only because it underscores these questions. The Story:

Bruce contacted R&R Roofing (Names are not actual names) to replace the roof on his 1960 ranch house. For Bruce, this was an 'insurance' claim, where the insurance company would reimburse him directly. Price quoted was $8000.

About the same time, Mark called R&R for a quote on replacing his roof. Oddly enough, this was also a 1960 ranch house, just a few blocks away from Bruce. Mark, a retired man, was paying this out of his pocket. Quote was $5000.

Then came a holiday weekend. At the family BBQ - Mark happens to be Bruce's father in law - the two discovered they were both looking to replace their roofs. They also noticed, for the first time, that their houses were exactly the same, except that they were mirror images of each other.

As you might guess, they were a bit puzzled at the large difference between the quotes.

Bruce called R&R and protested; R&R offered to cut maybe $200 from a quote that was $3000 higher than what had been given for Mark's roof. Bruce, naturally, found someone else to do the roof for $6000. That's still more than Mark paid, but much closer than the price R&R had given him.

Let's sum it all up. Here are the priced for the SAME roof:
$8000 for Bruce, from R&R
$6000 what Bruce paid someone else
$5000 For Mark, from R&R

Now, that's quite a spread.

Why?

If there were differences in the roof conditions, or the material choices, R&R failed to explain this to Bruce. Even finding a 'math error' in the low bid would have reassured Bruce. As it stands, Bruce is convinced that the only reason for the higher price is that he had told the guy he had insurance.

As for R&R .... just HOW did he arrive at his prices? Did he simply make a guess, or did he have some sort of method? Surrounded by tract homes, and having been in business for quite some time, R&R ought to have a very good idea as to his expenses for replacing a 'standard' roof.

So ... coming full circle ... how do you arrive at your pricing? How do you present it to your customer? What would you say if a customer responded "You quoted my Father in law half of that?"