Do any of you contractors ever get feedback on the bids you don't win? I am not sure if it is my bid, the economy, the number of guys doing side-work or what, but we are asked to submit bids and we are not getting any of them. We have a markup on material of 15% across the board, but no additional amount for overhead or profit and we still are not getting any jobs.
I was wondering if it is normal for the contractor to go back to the person requesting the bid and ask who was awarded the bid and for what amount in order that I might determine if my pricing is that far off or what might be the problem. I have talked with another electrical contractor that I have known for many years and he says that my prices are reasonable and that the only work he is getting is from old established accounts. He said he isnt getting any "new work" either. Any way to find out what the winning bid was other than asking the customer? And if you go back and ask the customer, do you begin to sound needy to them?
Confused in N. Texas.

How are you receiving the "invitation-to-bid" initially? Most contractors who invite bids will share information after awards are made. I find that it's easiest though to ask a GC who wasn't awarded the job about the electrical numbers they received. They are under no obligation to keep them secret.
I have even asked to see copies just so I could study how they were formatted, in case I wasn't making things clear enough. Give it a try.

I've been submitting bids to a general contractor who
primarily does prevailing wage jobs. I called to get
some feedback on where I was at with the numbers on the first job. His response was "Oh, I think I threw all that stuff away. we didn't get it." The next job he didn't even bother to get back to me. I spent hours and hours on the bids and
it sure feels like I'm throwing them in a black hole. Lately I've been "too busy" to bid his jobs. I like to work for team player contractors anyway so no loss!

At times, I get the impression that all we are doing is providing numbers for Architecture Firms & Would-Be Clients, to compile a Project Budget!!!

This seems very apparent with the "Need Your Numbers By Friday Morning" situations, which were called in & E-mailed at 2:30 PM on Wednesday!

After tons of , a few , and very little , submit a Proposal on Friday.

Follow-up after "enough" time passes ... only to get the same old Story!
--- In lieu of the "Uhh, We Are Still Waiting For [insert appropriate lie here]" Stories, becoming semi-intimate with a Contact Person's Voicemail greeting is 10 times more annoying!
(Read: since Proposal was submitted, contact person is never around their Office; left so many messages I can recite the Voicemail Greeting word for Word...)

wewire2:



That is unbelievable!
What a way to do business.

Good to hear that you are "Too Busy" for that GC's bids!
I would have sent in a bid that was so outragously high, it would rival the complete Project's cost!
Tack on an Insane list of Exclusions: -
i.e.:

• Supplying of and Installation of Lighting Fixtures Excluded,
• All Conduits, Conductors, Outlet Boxes, Panelboards, Switchboards and Service Equipment to be Supplied and Installed by others,
• General Contractor responsible for all Permit Fees, Plan Check Fees, Business Licenses, Inspection Requests, Work Comp, Bonds, Electrical Materials costs, etc...,
• All Materials and Labor (including Non-Productive Labor Units) are Not Included within this Proposal, and shall be the sole responsibility of the General Contractor. These costs shall be paid, in full, prior to this Contractor taking possession of the Project.
  If Project's Scope of Work exceeds the allocated funds pre-paid, the GC shall pay 150% of the increased costs, within 72 hours of costs increase notifications, or all work shall cease until funds have been remitted.
• Electrical Contractor is to communicate to General Contractor via Mental Telepathy; General Contractor is to understand all and interpret completely - with 100% accuracy, without the submission of RFIs.
• All RFIs submitted to the GC by the EC, shall be replied to within 24 Hours - NO EXCLUSIONS!
• And maybe, some wacky stuff...

OK, rant mode is over...

-- Scott

Rant? Just wait until you see the 'big picture.'

It was bad enough when 'experts' decided that getting multiple bids for everything was a good idea. Now we see 'act two.'

Act two, as I call it, was when business schools began teaching a few new 'ideas.' We're now in the days where they eager students have risen to where they are able to practice these novel thoughts.

The foundation is laid on the principle that 'if I'm bigger than you, then you need me more than I need you.' Count on them to work this at every opportunity.

The next plank in this platform is "bureaucracy is good." The guy who develops a plan, and does all the legwork (like getting bids) has zero involvement after that point. Instead, executing the plan gets handed off to another division, even an outside contractor. Spending gets funnelled through a remote purchasing agency. It's almost as if the system is designed to assure that no one involved at the start has any actual involvement in the project.

Purchasing will then take the next step - by putting everything out to bid again. They'll pull every trick .... give the lights to the guy whose lighting part had the cheapest labor, while specifying the lower fixture pricing of the other guy who had higher labor.

The final ploy is payment .... preferably on the courthouse steps, and not a moment sooner - and without penalties.

I can't stress one point enough: this is NOT accidental. These folks were taught to do things this way.

Reno:
You did a great service by summing up all the tricks & excuses. And Scott elaborated on great items in his 'rant'.

When I closed shop, I presented what I thought was a 'in the bag' job to the EC who bought my equipment, tools, etc. Job was budgeted around $380K with some 'wiggle' if required. Modifications & changes over about 6 months resulted in =$10 to 14K. They continued on with the 'preferred' EC for another 6 months with more changes, etc. End result was $385K number. All said & done, it went to someone else with a number that was $1500 LESS. Not even a phone call from the client saying...."the other guy is $XXX cheaper, can you do something"???? That was a 14 month ordeal with many hours by both of us with the client, POCO, etc.; so much for courtesy!!

You folks are missing something:

It's the old old-boy network which is protecting the Prevailing Wage ranks.

There is not enough work to go around. Even the IBEW is crying in their beer.

Unlike FDR, Obama vectored stimulus funding towards women, minorities -- stuff like medicine, state pension plans, school budget shortfalls, etc.

Hence, the funds available to build infrastructure have NOT boomed.

Yet Fortune 500 projects are ( mostly ) not moving forward. A perfect example being the Boeing plant - blocked by the Administration.

This collapse in construction has caused PW bids to be hammered. Near me the bid for an overpass revamp was so LOW that an additional overpass and road expansion running for miles fit inside the original estimate!

The savings to the taxpayer came straight out of the construction industry.

The above referenced GC's are demoralized since they're only getting the same schtick from their prospects, too.

------

And in further good news, the global economy is still headed for another major downturn.

Japan is contracting severely -- due to the tsunami. Try 5.5% year over year in the worlds 3rd largest economy.

China is a bubble. Her vast assets are offset by totally blown investments.

The Euro is cracking up. A European contraction is bad news -- since they are great customers.

And back home, this Administration is shutting down the energy industry; of which we are a part.

Deliberately ramping up electric bills is poison to electricians. Our customers will start by turning off the lights. Ultimately, our product will be designed out of future construction. That's what going green must mean.

-----

Slightly off topic:

I wish that what PV arrays that do get installed had the best engineering.

Putting them atop homes is impractical in many ways.

It'd be cheaper to just rack'em up in New Mexico, West Texas or Arizona.

If the Administration wants to stimulate green jobs -- such a scheme is where they should've started.

I;ve been everything from a Formen, Project Mamanger, Estimator, ect. The main problem with the bidding nowadays is Bid shopping from the General contractors when the Jobs not put out as a Prime. Other then that its either the bidder missed something, Bid it at cost to keep his guys working, or is plannning to make it up on extras.(bad prints). As far as Prevailing Wage . Its all the same for all contractors unless its a family business & theres several owners that well be working on the project.
Lets keep politics out of this Forum & others here please!!
This is not the place.

Come on Yoop! Where else are we gonna get the scoop?
A little political spice is nice now and then as long as it's related to the industry and doesn't get out of hand!

There are 3611 simple rules all estimators must remember, but only the first three matter:
Rule #1. Architects, engineers and POCO rep's never make mistakes.
Rule #2. When they make a mistake, see Rule #1.
Rule #3. When applying Rule #1 it is best to remember that all mistakes are YOUR fault. The sooner you accept this the sooner you can proceed to lose real money.

I like the way Gregtaylor thinks.
He knows the Rules!

One of our wholesalers collects the information. If you get prices from him, he calls to ask your bid and he tells you what the other bids were.

General contractors aren't comfortable giving out that information, but it makes them look dishonest. If times are good, you don't bid their jobs again. I suppose, if times are bad, you send him and his family to Disneyland.

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be a human. There's no honor in it.

I am really getting tired of spending my time on these bids just to throw them out into the black vacuum of GC space. I know that ya got to do this but I was wondering...are any of you using programs like "CDC Reports" or "Reed Construction Data" to try to find new sources of work? Are these even worth it? Guess instead of ranting, I am just showing signs of being used, abused and thrown away.
What about all you guys that are still working steady...what advice do you have. I am getting to the point that I am ready to try another field, but am getting to long in the tooth to do even that.
I know...breathe in........breathe out......repeat! "Tomorrow is another day and I will never be hungry again"

methinks this pix describes my 'bid process' best>
[img]https://7aj0sa.bay.livefilestore.co...0by%20the%20seat%20of%20your%20pants.gif[img]

there's a $$$ for that.....

Times are tough, there are many subs bidding anything they can, one recent project attracted 14 ECs.

A recent pool filter house, block structure, wood framed roof, 450 SFt, w/200 amp, 3 phase service, two pool filter pumps, misc outlets, etc attracted six (6) GC's and 19 ECs. The 19 ECs really upset the POCO field guy; 19 calls regarding relocating a pole, and 'POCO fees'.

In my experience all you can do is what you do to solicit work. If you don't get a call back from a bid assume 1) you were underbid. OR 2) some one did someone a FAVOR. All you can do is keep trying.

nny Stuff:
Electrical Contractor is to communicate to General Contractor via Mental Telepathy; General Contractor is to understand all and interpret completely - with 100% accuracy, without the submission of RFIs.

Let's not make more of this than we need. Let me describe a recent encounter, to illustrate exactly what you do NOT want to do:

After a service call to fix the furnace, continuing problems with the aged unit led me to call the serviceman with this request:

"Let's cut to the chase, and just replace the unit with a new one. We don't want to spend all winter worrying about what will break next."

The reply (this was a Thursday morning) was: "Well, yea, those things are always breaking down ... I'm on a job right now, and have to go somewhere for the weekend, so I won't be able to get together with you until sometime next week ..."

Come on ... it's in the 30's at night ... do you really think the customer is willing to wait a week for a quote, etc? You've already seen the job, how long does it take to say "a new furnace will cost $450-600?" Do you think that I'm getting the impression that you're not really interested in the job?

Consider that this story started two weeks before the weather turned, with others being 'too busy' to look at the furnace BEFORE it got cold out.

So, how did I resolve this? Well, I have one advantage over the usual DIY- an account at the HVAC parts house. So I made time to visit there .... dealt with a staff that was predisposed to telling me the part wasn't ... holy smokes, they DID have the part .... put it in, and the beast is making heat.

I'm not picking on the HVAC industry. We do the same thing ourselves .... we get so used to saying 'no' that we forget to say 'yes, it CAN be done.'

Yes, I always get feedback on bids submitted. You spent a great deal of time and energy on your bid, and you deserve to know the outcome, and the reason for it. At the very least, you should call the GC after bidding has ended, and ask where you came in, whether high or low. Some will even tell you the exact bids submitted. Keep in mind that you are sometimes bidding against 30 other contractors for jobs, so that has something to do with it as well. In my opinion, if you are not getting feedback after a bid, you are selling yourself short.

for me when I bid on jobs (mostly side jobs that are not too big) I know my worth, Ill give them a figure and they can either take it or leave it. Im not gonna bust my balls for some guy just so he can save a couple bucks. If thats what he wants to do then he can go to some hack job that will charge him 25 bucks an hour. I know that the work i do is done up to all Electrical codes, and it is safe and proper. so I will not work for free just for the sake of working. Know your worth and stick to your Bid.