of contracting seems to be the contract itself.

2 pages? 20 pages? simple? complex? are we held to what we didn't say as much as to what we did say?

I'd like to create some sort of boiler plate template, something to start with , the particulars can be modified pertinent to the job(s) from there

So here's what i propose, copy paste what you will , either bits of your own contractual escapades, or googled up ones

This should come naturally to some of you have been doing this since God wore short pants, or perhaps some of you who've been on the bereaucratic side of the fence viewing the same repetitive mistakes

Perhaps we can even work toward a collective effort, bodly going where no sparkies have gone before !

I'll start>


Permits and Inspections~ via {electrical company} to address NFPA 70 only.

Additions and/or Omissions~to be provided via written change orders @ cost+, including changes and/or additional requirements via federal, state and/or local AHJ

~S~

This should really get interesting shortly!!

Well, there seems to be a need for two basic contract designs.

One is for the electrical portion of a broader job.

The other is for repairs, service calls, etc.

Gentlemen:
FWIW, for 'small' jobs I used a 'Proposal' form that was self generated. Names, jobsite, and description of work. Explanation of Insurance/WC, and the terms of payment. Spelled out the terms for any additional work that was requested, and that it MUST be in writing, signed by a 'responsible person' with the additional costs. Explained permit and inspection responsibilities, and that final payment is NOT payable until final inspection and approval. (That is NJ State Law)

For other jobs, I used the AIA contract format, which was drawn up by the architect of record.

T&M work was performed under a written contract which stated labor rates, travel (if app), and materials MU%. The usual legal items, and that was that.

The above worked for 25+ years, and there were quite a few 'handshake' deals that also were non-eventful.

Unfortunatley, todays climate requires more 'input' from the legal scholars for any contractor to stay out of trouble.

Well, let's look at our past jobs, as well as shows like "Holmes on Homes," for some guidance. Just what need the contract address?

Sure, we can worry forever about ancillary issues like labor disputes, inheritance, changes of ownership, etc. Sure, these things are important, but they're secondary to defining just what the job is that we are trying to perform.

All too often, contracts seem designed to confuse rather than clarify. You say "I'll run a new circuit," while the customer has called you because 'the light doesn't work.' An awful lot of disputes arise when the new circuit is run, but the light still doesn't work.

Apart from the 'electrical' part of the job, we need to specify just who protects the site, who cleans the site, who hauls off the trash, who fixes the holes in the wall, etc.

We need to be clear as to what obstacles we expect to encounter - and which ones are beyond the scope of the work. I mean, what if the simple drywall partition turns out to have a solid concrete and rebar fill?

Finally, we need to be explicit as to job scheduling and payment arrangements.

A lot of the langauge in the Specs and NEC are due to the excessive quantities of "barracks lawyers" out there.
Remember when we didn't get into arguments about 'bathrooms' vs. 'powder rooms'?
Remember when everyone knew what a 'building' was?

A couple of years ago at an IAEI conference, the speaker said that he was trying to write a definition for a kitchen so people wouldn't be able to get around it by playing word games.
He said that when his wife found out what he had been working so hard on, her only comment was "just how stupid are these people?"

I have an old Spec book from when my uncle had an business building put up in the early 1900's. The Specs (including signatures) was 23 pages.
This worked because it was able to spec the plumbing with "use all quality fixtures" instead of taking 8 pages to describe the detailed workings of a toilet.

It was pointed out to me once upon a time just how odd it was that entire civilizations can be run with 10 Commandments, but it takes 500 pages to run a parking lot.

Only 5,500 pages?

(Moderator: Irrelevant political tangent has been edited away)

Just remember you're not getting hired by the 'barracks lawyers.' We're in the business of pleasing customers. As is all too clear in "Holmes on Homes," folks are not getting distressed because the job went 5 minutes overtime or $5 over budget. For the usual customer to get upset, it takes a lot more than that.

So let's write our contracts in terms folks actually understand. The customer doesn't know, or care, about the distinctions between a ground rod, ground hog, or hole hawg.

it's a law down there Hotone?

can i presume this also works in the contractor's favor?



seen a few, tried googling up a free download, (no soap so far)>

http://consusgroup.com/contracts/am...31/&gclid=CIeul5vg4acCFQQ65QodUiWP_Q


~S~

true dat Reno.....

a good example, probably most common might be being asked if the wiring is 'safe'.

safe being a very relative term, usually only gains perspective with a client's understanding of his/her wiring.

an educated customer privy to options and input being more apt to pay their bills, most of us are caught up repetitively bleating wiring 101.

pursuant to this goal a ditty i wrote to a concerned group after an exploratory in a commercial building>

wiring status>
The (>>>>>>>) building has a new incoming electrical service, it is enough of a service to run the electrical demand there now, lighting, power, appliances. There are about 2 dozen circuits in a 30 circuit panel. Only 1/2 dozen of these are of older varieties, the rest is grounded thermoplastic. As the circuitry branches out, it assumes older methods, especially as seen in the attic & second floor. . In order to better understand the wiring methods incorporated there (representative of every sort since kerosene lighting) , and the need to address each variety the list is as follows. Safety being a relative term, the powers that be will divide all the below into two distinctions, grounded, or ungrounded (the 3rd bare protective grounding conductor being the desired goal)

K&T > Knob & Tubing , single conductors run on individual porcelian stops , no grounding (3rd bare protective wire) conductor

BX > metal jacketed flexible cable, no grounding conductor

Tar & cloth Romex> pre-theromplastic , most without a grounding conductor, some with the lesser undersized grounding conductor

NM Romex- The first thermoplastic wiring method w/ full sized grounding conductor

NM-B - the current thermoplastic w/ full sized grounding conductor

MC cable- the modern BX w/ full sized grounding conductor

EMT - electrical metallic tubing w/ individual conductors (and green grounding conductor)




i would be interested in how this might be worded.....



one word> lead

another word> asbestos

my answer to either on a renovation contract>


open frame wiring runs, or surface mount wiring methods, access to enclosed, concealed , or otherwise not open frame by others




GC's are mostly chronologically challenged, dialing in the season on job is sometimes a feat in itself , as to $$$, how's this sound?>

______down, % paid consummate of % of electrical work completed
~S~

lol!, this is civilization? i'll go out on a theological limb and conject it's gone waaaaay past small claims, we're talking class action!



~S~

~s~:
Put into state law for the protection of consumers.

NJAC 13:45 A-16.2 to be specific.
or;
NJAC 13:45-3.16 (a) 10.ii

It's not one of the most publicized, but it has been around for a while.

The wording varies on various 'stamps' and placards.

"Final payment to the contractor is not not required to be made before a final inspection performed" printed on the placards within my office.

"Final inspections are required before final payment is made to contractor" on a 'stamp' at the counter.

No, there is no protection for the contractors, as far as I'm aware.

Note the there is no $$$ amount or percentages mentioned or implied.

I'll scout around for the actual printed 'law' as soon as I have time.



It is printed on the backside of most permit placards

http://www.newjerseyconstructioncontract.com/images/NJ.png

???

might ahhh, constraining specs HotOne

of course, we on the other side of the coin might consider learning a thing or two.....

~S~

~s~:

Run that by me again please.

sorry...., you have laws HotOne , at first sniff they seem rather constraining, that said, given we have unenforced fairy tales at best here it might be an eyeopener to contract in such an enviroment

~S~

~s~:
Yes, there are laws on the books here, but...enforcement? The one mentioned herein has been around for some time, but I would say the majority of the public statewide have not a clue it exists. There is no way for it to be enforced, and if there was a way....who would be 'the enforcer'.

Yes, directly written to protect the consumers, but in an indirect way....the responsible contractors also.

I still see the end results of the uneducated public hiring someone to do a job, paying a substantial amount, and never seeing that person again. That type of 'someone' IMHO makes the responsible contractors look 'bad' also.

I think that by the time that anyone is thinking to call a lawyer, the job has already failed.

Since this thread is about contracts, I'll focus on that element.

Here's where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make sure from the outset that you're clear on what you need to do - and that the customer is clear on what to expect. That's your primary way to avoid problems.

Avoid the temptation to 'pass ther buck.' Yes, I know this means you're biting off more than some guys want to. For example ... if you state that wall repairs are the customers' responsibility, and they're not happy with the repair, they'll associate that with you. That will get them looking for other faults. Pointing to the fine print of the service agreement after you've made the hole is no way to have a happy customer. Make sure they understand these things before you make that hole.

Recognize that things get complicated when intermediaries are involved. For example, when you're brought in by the general contractor and the customer is present. Or, when the owner hired you, but his manager is present. These 'intermediaries' weren't there when the deal was made ... but they sure can muck things up.

Good points Reno!

The mentions above re: NJAC etc was & is relevant within contract docs. The key being the financial spectrum of payments. As the law is written (don't matter who does the interpertations) "FINAL payment is the keyword.

Here's what i just walked into>









Here's my 'contractual plain english'response >

(deleted), here's what i would like to do @ the (deleted) residence in Andover VT, note that pursuant to this , it would be good to have it made clear what the original intent was from the electrical investigation / print done today

1) in the basement, either bore a series of holes in a straight line, or install a running board for home runs to panel w/ room for growth

2) move all wiring to running board(s) that are secured to face of laminate cellar beams, use BX38 clips listed for MC cable

3) move all applicable slack toward current JB's for retermination / interface

4) make existing general use circuitry into existing home runs, reterminate, ground properly, provide compliant JB space & slack

5) provide new home runs for dedicated circuits (note that the 14G already installed required to be on a 20A will stay on 15A, and be noted as such)

6) provide GFI protection in locations required

7) check for proper ampacity/wiring gauge @ panel. i.e.-14G on 15A, 12G on 20A, etc

8) work all outside mc cable into applicable boxes for lighting fixtures (4 locations) & hang fixtures

9) make up undone switching w/ proper MC cable box clamps, grounding & white switches

10) cellar lighting switch @ top of stairs & at bottom cellar entry, minimum 4 cellar keyless porcelians

11) furnace EM switch @ top of cellar stairs

12) clearly mark panel with schedule

I would also recommend surf mount 4 sq's for cellar entry switching at the rear cellar door, vs. cut in boxes

Estimate (deleted, but you cab guess if you'd like) of T&M work to this point

suggested>

a) smoke/co detectors per current Vermont standard (noted is one hallway porcelian being tagged 'smoke' in basement)

b) proper grounding of all made up devices / device boxes / JB's

c) TP (tamper resistant) devicing per current requirements

d) proper bonding of all mettalic raceways, vessels, plumbing

e) change out your current breakers for afci's where required

f) dedicated circuitry ampacity where applicable (fish job) , a doable example here might be the bathroom receptacles fed via 14G, required to be 12G

etta: this is an EE from NJ who wired his house in 14G MC cable ($$$ to kneecap him HotOne)

so.....how'd i do?

~S~

I would add a clause about confiscating his tools and taping his hands together.

`s~:
I am not responsible for any NJ EE's!! LOL

Hopefully the $$$$ works out.

He thinks he's done a good job so far Reno

The place is on a construction loan, so i guess whoever the bank's sending out thinks so too

This is everyday for me (excuse me i need to scream)



there, i feel better now....

~S~

My mistake ... strike 'clause' and insert 'claws.'

Claws would be more on the mark Reno, everyone conviently forgets which party did what 1/2 of the job when something goes wrong down the road

this is why i document well,including e-mail

always gotta keep that 'last electrician' onus in mind...

~S~