I'm doing a bid that would include hiring help on an industrial job that requires the DB act

Admittedly, i haven't had to deal with this , and am clueless

the website i've found is here>
Selecting DBA Wage Decisions

the info for my area is>

General Decision Number: VT100010 09/03/2010 VT10

Superseded General Decision Number: VT20080010

State: Vermont

Construction Type: Building

County: Windsor County in Vermont.

BUILDING CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS (does not include single family
homes and apartments up to and including 4 stories)


Modification Number Publication Date
0 03/12/2010
1 04/23/2010
2 06/04/2010
3 09/03/2010

* ELEC0300-001 09/01/2010

Rates Fringes

ELECTRICIAN
COMMERCIAL..................$ 17.95 20%+7.20
INDUSTRIAL AND
MANUFACTURING...............$ 19.13 20%+7.20
TELEDATA:
Cable splicer..............$ 19.19 20%+7.20
Technician.................$ 20.20 20%+7.20
----------------------------------------------------------------
PLUM0693-002 05/01/2010

Rates Fringes

Plumber/pipefitter (includes
HVAC piping):.................$ 25.10 11.85
----------------------------------------------------------------
SUVT2005-006 07/21/2005

Rates Fringes

Carpenter (includes
drywall hanging)..............$ 14.48 3.40

Cement mason....................$ 19.75

Ironworker, structural..........$ 15.00 2.32

Laborers:
Cement mason tender.........$ 12.33 3.86
General.....................$ 10.77

Power equipment operators:
Backhoe.....................$ 15.00 1.75
Excavator...................$ 15.00 1.32
----------------------------------------------------------------

WELDERS - Receive rate prescribed for craft performing
operation to which welding is incidental.
================================================================

Unlisted classifications needed for work not included within
the scope of the classifications listed may be added after
award only as provided in the labor standards contract clauses
(29CFR 5.5 (a)(1)(ii)).

----------------------------------------------------------------

In the listing above, the "SU" designation means that rates
listed under the identifier do not reflect collectively
bargained wage and fringe benefit rates. Other designations
indicate unions whose rates have been determined to be
prevailing.

----------------------------------------------------------------

WAGE DETERMINATION APPEALS PROCESS

1.) Has there been an initial decision in the matter? This can
be:

* an existing published wage determination
* a survey underlying a wage determination
* a Wage and Hour Division letter setting forth a position on
a wage determination matter
* a conformance (additional classification and rate) ruling

On survey related matters, initial contact, including requests
for summaries of surveys, should be with the Wage and Hour
Regional Office for the area in which the survey was conducted
because those Regional Offices have responsibility for the
Davis-Bacon survey program. If the response from this initial
contact is not satisfactory, then the process described in 2.)
and 3.) should be followed.

With regard to any other matter not yet ripe for the formal
process described here, initial contact should be with the
Branch of Construction Wage Determinations. Write to:

Branch of Construction Wage Determinations
Wage and Hour Division
U.S. Department of Labor
200 Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20210

2.) If the answer to the question in 1.) is yes, then an
interested party (those affected by the action) can request
review and reconsideration from the Wage and Hour Administrator
(See 29 CFR Part 1.8 and 29 CFR Part 7). Write to:

Wage and Hour Administrator
U.S. Department of Labor
200 Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20210

The request should be accompanied by a full statement of the
interested party's position and by any information (wage
payment data, project description, area practice material,
etc.) that the requestor considers relevant to the issue.

3.) If the decision of the Administrator is not favorable, an
interested party may appeal directly to the Administrative
Review Board (formerly the Wage Appeals Board). Write to:

Administrative Review Board
U.S. Department of Labor
200 Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20210

4.) All decisions by the Administrative Review Board are final.


================================================================

END OF GENERAL DECISION
as far as i can see i'm held to>
$ 19.13 20%+7.20
i'm not exactly sure how the 20%, or 7.20 works here

any help out there for this first timer?

~S~

~s~:
Basically, as I understand it and this was about 14+ years back....

$ 19.13 + $3.83 + $ 7.20 equates to $ 31.15 hr/rate.

I did one (1) of these jobs quite a few years back, and swore 'never again'!

Mine was over $65.00 hr/journeyman. And, the paperwork and red tape was a nightmare.

Yours, if the numbers are right, is not a bad rate; current down here is damn close to $98 +

$31 / $98 is quite a disparity HotOne, i thought the entire jist of the DBA was to address the issue, not accent it...


that said, thanks for doing the math, i'm not sure who to contact about this red tape you speak of, my accountant i would guess?

~S~

Your accountant is a 'must'. Also, somewhere within the bureaucratic compilation there should be a person that can offer you some guidance at 'no charge'.

I had to provide detailed payroll records, full disclosure of all my employees, copies of the payroll checks, time sheet records, and detailed work schedules.

There have been instances here (NJ) of various kick-back schemes and 'games' with things like "here's your check, cash it & pay back xxx$ to the 'boss'". Hence, the detailed info required. Oh, yes...there's a multitude of forms also.

Good Luck! Hope ya get the work.

The BD jobs can but most small guys with little or no assets and cash out of business in a flash, and the paper work never ends.

But with a good accountant that knows the system, it sure helps

Once you get into a bureaucratic loop (like this job sounds like), plan on waiting forever for your money. I've seen invoices bounced for checking the wrong box on 1 of 18 forms. Once that got fixed, it travelled further up the pipeline until it got kicked out because the forms as submitted were stapled together in the wrong order (I'm not kidding).

Generally everyone in the bureaucrat chain is trying to do their job right, but nobody looks at the big picture. They just want the invoice off their desk; it makes no difference to them if it gets kicked further up the chain or kicked out the door and right back to you.

~s~:

Heed the above.

oh i am HotOne, i'm a little guy, in fact lately i'm so little i need a stool to be seen at the parts counter

so i'm off to the accountant asap before i complete this bid.

one thing i have learned the hard way is an electrician does not a biz man make

i'll post any advice given from the accountant here, and thanks for the heads up

~S~

Davis Bacon jobs normally are terminal for the small guy.

The paperwork burden is normally handled by specialty software these days. Which you will not be able to afford for just one job and a small one at that.

Additionally, you sign away your wife and first born son if they find any screw-ups. Being a newbie -- you'll be getting the treatment. After all, you're stealing someone's rice bowl.

A couple of gotchas: payroll payments must be EXTREMELY timely -- regardless of how slow the public authority pays you. The fact that you're still waiting on your money cuts absolutely no ice at all. Late payroll penalties are ferocious. We're not talking about the checks to the troops -- rather the benefits checks, withheld taxes, etc.

What this means is that the fat gravy in the bid is consumed FINANCING the job for the astonishingly slow pays that populate our government at all levels.

I once ran the books for an NYSE firm whose ONLY customer is Uncle Sam. They routinely financed accounts receivable running out SIX to NINE months -- year in and year out. ( Yes, for the Federal Government ! )

You'd better have that level of working capital/banking arrangement.

interesting Tesla

i did sit before my accountant yesterday, she dug me up some individual in another office that stated 'yeah, we can do DB payroll' , but didn't sound overly excited about it

So now i know it's doable from an accounting standpoint, yet am just learning of these lead lag specifics

methinks the firm that solicited me knows this. They called me looking for a 'little guy' , openly expressing their discontent with numbers they recieved from the 'big guys' (which perhaps are out of state, because most electrical outfits in VT are mom/pop shops)

my spidey sense is tingling....

~S~

This alone ,would make me run !!!!

The way things are now. Who has a 90-120 day capital?

These folks aren't dumb,Looking out for themselves regardless of who becomes the victim.
There IS A REASON the big shops charge,it aint just the overhead.

~s~:

Are you going anywhere with this?

I'm curious!

i dunno HotOne, i did do a little reasearch and came up with the firm running the show>

http://hamiltongroup2000.com/index.html

here's a pix of the job>



Basically, what i do get is the subsidary firm in charge of 'lectrical installs (Atlantic Power) doesn't have a license up here

and i've already been given the heads up from the state that a few unlicensed sorts have been given the boot

so i guess it's not too hard to put that together , and why they want me

The first job here is a 6000 amp service, 4000A @ 480/277, 2000A @ 208/120. The head honcho calls me up and asks if i can make a parts list (all i have is a line diagram) , and get started.

I shot back that most jobs this size are usually engineered, and then go through the state's plan review, which he eventually conceeded to, and supposedly is in the process of

I don't have the capital to walk into a job this size, nor is any supplier or banker going to extend me it, unless i want to put up my house for collateral

So, i e-mailed them my terms, the only terms i can really do

I'll sub out to them as a foreman, it all gets done by the book, i figure (including myself) 2 licenses, 2 apprentices minimum for 4-6 months (depending on whatever else they have for a job there aside from the service)on thier payroll

there's enough hungry sparkies up here surviving on serv calls right now, so shaking the tree won't be hard ( and who wouldn't want to apprentice a while on a job like this?)

further, i placed a huge emphasis on safety, the whole 9 yards (i've already been boning up, because if you're solo like me, you don't always pay attention like one should)

and all the heavy toolage, pullers, benders, manlifts, etc are rented to them as well

so, about all that i'll get outta this (if they accept my terms) is a T&M paycheck, but that's really all i'm looking for anyways, i'm just not willing to cheese anything out yanno, why should I?

~S~

~s~:
Sounds flat out like their looking for a much needed guy with a State Lic.! Here, (NJ) any sort of 'deal'like that has to go before the Board, with all the required paperwork, and get an approval....beforehand. That's a 3 to 6 month process here, without them finding any 'issues'.

Your scenario above sounds like it could be a good gig, IF they are OK with your terms.

Unless someone is in really good financial shape, floating a substantial job in todays economic conditions is really tough. Using personal security (ie: your home) could turn into a really bad situation quite quickly.

I know from experience (before the economic explosion) floating a substantial payroll (75+k) & having a principal 'miss' a timely payment can wreck havoc on a six figure credit line real fast.

I wish you good luck! May your terms be agreeable, or negotiable, and hopefully a good run into the upcoming spring.

thanks Hotone. I didn't even consider the licensing senario with the state, but i know the ahj rather well, we came up in the trade together, so i'll be informing him of the 'deal' if indeed it does happen.

My terms stipulate that it will be my permit btw. I did that so i could have some level of control. I also turned down the 'incentive' they've offered, because it introduces strings i'd rather not be subject to

I also found out this is a fed stimulus job, high profile for my area. So it's very political, all these sorts involved are talking about having the Govenor cut the ribbon, etc

I'm just looking for work, didn't pay myself for 4 months last spring, and i'm far from alone. There's plenty of accountant firms up here they can solicit, so keeping it simple, we (the crew) show up on monday, get checks cut on friday.

let's try that pix again>

~s~:
I know the score..."keeping it simple, we (the crew) show up on monday, get checks cut on friday".

After 25+ years of being "self employed" & having a payroll to make, bills to pay, etc., I can tell you it's nice to get a paycheck every other Wed.

Nice pic BTW. A former factory type bldg facing conversion and return to the local tax roles.

This thread has expanded a bit ... so I thought I'd point out some of the additional 'pitfalls' that this particular project is going to entail:

Watch out for certification requirements. These include:

You, and every lead man, will need the 30-hr OSHA certificate. Every worker will need the OSHA 10-hr. certificate.

Being a remodel, you will need EPA lead certification, and work areas will need to be tented off.

In addition, the asbestos issue will come up.

As a government project, expect LEED, or other 'green' issues, to arise. These may severely restrict your access to the site, and greatly complicate trash disposal and materials purchasing.

Don't be surprised if the phone/data/cable work needs a BICSI-certified installer.

good point Reno

and that may just be the deal breaker for me, unless being self taught is acceptable

thanks

~S~

Job update,

well, it's been a while since i've been on a job this big. I can honestly say i was rather worried about being slow on the draw, and did quite a lot of safety related reading, but methinks now all that angst might have been in vain. Right now, this is the biggest job in southern Vermont, every bureaucrat , agency , and especially politican has made a point of imparting their blessings here. I call it the world leader training ground.

I started out in the winter setting up the temp for the job, it was a particulary bad winter here, with grumblings from the most stoic old farts. So, per usual, the zoot suits, mucklucks, and goofy hats were the order of the day, along with hammer drills for frost, shoveling to meter locations, etc. The entire project fronts the river /mainstreet, the back has all the old millhouses which are now low rent, along with a number of condemed derelic buildings left unoccupied. I have had no less than one man per day walk up to me as i working the ugly side asking for employment. At that time , i was the only participant, other than two locals , Ted & Bob ,who had been hired at the start of demolition phase, almost 3 years back.

Meanwhile, the powers that be started out with illegals here. They were put up in one of the abandoned buildings , which were purchased for them for a song, and worked 7 days a week until the border patrol outsed the lot of them, with one young man transported to Canada, and summarily dumped with a $50 bill, couresty of the state of VT. Calling in explaining his court date was something like 17 months off, Ted took pity and went up to fetch the young buck , assumably he's made his way back home.


The demolition phase left much of the older structure open to the weather, which wouldn't be a concern save for the 4160 UG primary and Xformers that enter from the street and are positioned on the lowest central level , constantly under the threat of deluge this spring. There was much in the way of sump pumps , as well as roof drain maintenance this spring. Over a number of years, the demoltion has resulted in this service having multiple tentacles shut down without any LOTO, some nema 1 JB's out in the weather wrapped in garbadge bags, some open/hanging 4/0 or lager runs with icelces melting The 'metal men' literally swept through shutting off , and pulling out whatever CU or AL they could, leaving what they couldn't. I don't think i've seen a bigger electrical hazard in my entire carear run right on under the noses of so many people who should, by rights, have mentioned it


Next came the HB-1 legal aliens. They'll work a striaght 14 days, then go back to Virgina (or wherever) for a week off. It kinda pisses me off that so many locals have asked me who/what/where is the job deal, only to have them realize these folks beat them out, but it's all on the up/up, and to be honest , looking at the letter of the HB1 law, who wouldn't want to take advantage of it? One apparently being somewhat intimidated, left the other day on the excuse of not agreeing with Vermont water. The notion of a Mexican unable to digest Vt water was something of a chuckle on the job

The only downside here is that breaking all the rules seems to be a badge of honor, even the inspectors that find unlicensed workers (other than 'lectrical) seem politically hobbled from busting a move. OSHA as well as the EPA have had their say as well, i'm hearing both aren't pleased of late, it's like some sort of standoff. One can smell the consumation of big $$$ and political influence having it off ....

Anyways, the son & and i are on our best behaviour here, wearing all our safety bells and whistles. It's a good job to be apprenticed on, and he's all signed up and bona fide with the state's blessings (i guess the #'s are down) I'm trying my best to impart to him what i can of the trade, particularly the safety aspects. I was brought into this trade at a time when such ideals weren't a very big concern, very few educational avenues existed. And while I don't see eye/eye with the shill safety biz, i do think a tad different when my own flesh/bloods doin' the tool belt strut, and am having to stand my ground and serve as example , good for me to clean up my act as well, eh?.

Wish me luck fella's

~S~

~s~:
Yes, best of luck to you & your son!! Sounds like you are in a real class "A" project! Kinda shocking to me that 'locals' are not being utilized, and the 'misplaced froeign travelers' and visiting foreign travelers are given work, and some eyes are blind. The housing in the abandoned building must have been real cute. That would last about an hour after the dime was dropped here.


I have to tell you that I was in the same spot as you with the safety stuff in my early days, as most of the guys I came up with. Today is a different animal.

Stay safe, & keep 'the kid' safe....and watch out for....ICE!!

thank you HotOne

~S~

~s~:

Bumping up, & hoping for a ststus update from you!!

thanks for the kick in the keester Hotone !

well, i've been a busy boy lately. I've just pulled a permit on the biggest (6000A) service of my career. 4000' of 4" emt ,and all the kibbles & bits just landed

I've spent countless hours researching code and/or material related details , all kinds of concerns

The son is a registered apprentice, and there's really no better job for him to start cracking the books on

That's been good for me too in fact, being that i now am obligated to actually explain things, i've invested in a 2011 handbook. You know it's so easy to become one of those crummegeon sparkies

I've completed my lead saftey course,(another pix license, good grief!) i'm about done with my on-line osha course, and am trying to set aside my heathen ways to be the good example for my son

I've invested in fall protection, steel toes, HH's, loto, etc,

heck, i might even have to start leaving the toilet seat down....

The owner sparky from down south, sensing i was slightly intimidated biting off more than i could chew, flew up with one of his top foremen to get us started, even brought a spankin' new Milwaukee bandsaw for the job
{i can't remember last i unpacked a new tool.....)


I'm on a regular pay schedule, i'm not coming home looking like a mud wrestler due to usual outside ditch work, i'm not having to explain gfi's afci's , or answering other repetitively inane questions to sorts that can't grasp simple concepts, i'm not in small claims court fighting for what i'm owed, or registering a lien @ town hall

these folks order all the materials, tools, lifts, etc...anything i need to get it done, they're looking to accommodate me, not for a piece of me , the dif is simply phenomenal

and all i have to do is show up, take my vitamins, and keep my antique postierior moving

life is gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood!

~Sparky~

~S~:

Good for you!!! & Good for #1 son!!!!

Stay safe!! Thanks for the update.