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Hi all,
I am a newby contractor that has not had the benefit of many hard knocks. Thought this would be a good forum to compile a knowledge base of common business mistakes to avoid. Kind of a self defense class for New EC's? I appreciate your input.
Ideas? How about these subjects?
Chapter 1 Customer Cheats
Chapter 2 Other Contracter Games
Chapter 3 The GC does what?
Chapter 4 To avoid payment, just.....
Posted By: e57 Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 05/31/07 06:04 AM
Contracting is about CONTRACTS! Shake the hand after one is signed.

Contracting is about CONTRACTS! The devil is in the details. Start/end, payment/schedule, terms and closure.

Contracting is about CONTRACTS! Vagaries are mis-conceptions that lead to unhappy customers who don't pay bills or worse sue you.

Contracting is about CONTRACTS! Never pay someone else for the privilege of working for them. Sweat equity does not buy much.

Contracting is about CONTRACTS! You need to spend money to make money, and need to make money to spend money to make money...
Posted By: Zapped Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 05/31/07 02:07 PM
Well said e57 - Contracting is about CONTRACTS!

Read a few sample contracts from other contractors. Compare, and make sense of the variations that you see.

Provide the best service and materials you can, and don't pay to work.

Never get yourself in an indefensible position if you can avoid it.

First of all, THINK.
Watch for language that can be interpreted for you to do the work over and over without being able to charge for it.

If it says "rough in for custom refrigerator", make sure that it says what unit; or what circuits, where and how high.
If you guess and then the equipment is different that you were originally told, getting paid for the change may be an uphill climb (I'm not paying you to change it because you did it wrong the first time).

"Verify in Field" and "Coordinate" are also pitfalls that you need to look out for. There's nothing wrong with either of these, but just make sure that everyone concerned is on the same page before you pick up a tool and start something that might not be exactly what the finished product is supposed to look like.
Posted By: Celtic Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 05/31/07 08:50 PM
Good thoughts
Posted By: LK Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/01/07 03:25 AM
Carry plenty of change orders on the truck, and learn how to fill them out with all the details, get them signed for approval before you start any changes, No he is a good guy, No I have been working with him for years, No but it's a friend, No we are related, "No EXCEPTIONS." and if it's a special order change, get an on the spot deposit.

This applies if your a one man or a 100 man operation, in this case size does not matter.
LK has an excellent point.

NO exceptions has to mean exactly that!

As soon as you make a single exception, you open the floodgates to folks who will whine that "you trusted Bill without making him sign this...but you won't trust ME?"

Treat everyone the same, whether you've been working with them for 20 years or met them this morning, and you'll gain respect as a someone who's serious about their work.

And always remember, there's business and personal. Never confuse the 2. If you're working for your best friend, he's just another customer. That approach can also keep you from ruining a good friendship if something goes South in the business relationship.
Posted By: Tiger Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/03/07 04:52 AM
Wait until you have several years experience before working for a GC...and read a book on negotiating. When you're familiar with negotiation tactics like "The Gasp" and "The Pause" you're ready to fish the deep waters of GCs.

Dave
Posted By: LK Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/03/07 09:47 PM
Dave,

You have a point, because the first place the GC's look, is for the green guys, they know they are just starting, and have little, or no experience in real job costing.
Posted By: ITO Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/04/07 08:46 PM
The more I read this thread, the more I want to respond.

The longer you wait to jump in to commercial work the longer it will take to figure out how it works. You will get taken on some things, but you will learn how to deal with this as you do more work its just part of the process; they are some lessons you pay to learn.

The most important parts of commercial contracting are scope, contract and project management. This is just a very abbreviated run through.

Part-1) When you bid the job, CLEARLY define your scope in your proposal. It is not uncommon to have a page or two of your proposal dedicated to just scope.

Here is a copy of my scope form I use for small jobs:

Scope-4.xls Link

Items:

11) Utility Fees- Make the owner pay these its part setting up his account. GC love to get you to do this, then you get to pay the utility bill too.
21) Surveying- This is the GCs job, make them do it.
22) AC Controls- If the Mechanical equipment does not work, and you did the controls, you will spend a lot of labor proving it’s the Mechanical guys problem and not yours. Its his equipment, let him make it work.
24)VFDs- Under no circumstance should you furnish the VFD, it is specific to the unit it serves and is furnished by the Mechanical contractor.
25) Starters- If you can make the Mechanical contractor furnish his own starters, its gets you off the hook for sizing them.
29) Control wire- It’s a pain, exclude it if you can.
31) Demo- You are an electrical contractor, not a demo contractor. Put “make safe” in your proposal and avoid the demo part.
35) Consumption of Temporary Power- Under no circumstances EVER pay for consumption of temporary power. It’s a deal breaker, if the GC insists just walk away from it, or you will get screwed. Let me give you an example; on a big box retail job when the conditioned air comes on two months before turn over, you could expect the electric bills to be $20,000 plus a month.
36) Task Lighting- Read up on what OSHA says is adequate temporary lighting, and then compare it to what the painters say they need to do their work. No matter what you put in your bid for temporary lights, it’s never enough so make sure your temporary lights are on an allowance and make it clear that the other trades need to provide their own task lighting.
38) Roof penetrations- If the roof leaks it needs to not be your fault.
39) Cutting Patching and Painting- No matter how hard you try, you just can’t paint that well with a pair of Kleins. You may want to include concrete cut and patch pack under #19 but be clear about it.
41) Cad Fees- Be clear on how your as-builts are to be prepared and who pays for what. Some project require CAD as-builts and some Architects love to charge for the backgrounds.
42) Access panels- Be careful with these, I have lost my ass on jobs in access panels.
45) Completed Operations Endorsements- This is part of the GCs insurance that they have figured out how to get you to pay for by putting it in your contract. If you miss this being slipped in your contract it will cost you about $1,000.
46) Fire Alarm System- You don’t have to exclude this but if you do include it make sure you have a sub that can do it on a “performance contract”, ie his stuff has to work and pass local inspection, regardless of what the plans say.
50) Telephone/DATA system- This is a glaring hole on most plans, make it clear your scope does not include this, or you will be doing and certifying it.
58) Sound System- It’s a pain avoid it.
59) Speakers- You might be surprised how many times this item gets snuck into the E-sheets.
65) Emergency Exit Panic Hardware- Avoid it like the plague. Look the rule of thumb is if you did not furnish it, then don’t agree to make it work. Obviously that won’t work for the light fixtures, but it does apply to all door hardware of any kind including magnetic locks. These items are notoriously problematic and the supplier will blame you if it does not work.

Part-2) Contract & Negotiations

So the GC gets your bid and calls you back, that’s good its called a “call back” and it means you were either had a number that is in the ball park, or you were the only one who bid it. When the GC calls you back and starts asking for breakouts then you know you are low.

Keep in mind don’t EVER give unit prices, and anything you break out keep the O&P and only give the cost back.

So you and the GC go back and forth a bit with your scope and they will want you to cut your price (on principle) a few hundred dollars then they send you a contract. Ok here is a subtly that takes few jobs to catch; the group in the GC’s office that bids the jobs and makes the deals with the subs is NOT the group that executes the contract and builds the job. Anything said or agreed on during negotiations does not mean Jack if it’s not in writing on your contract.

When you do get to see the contract they want you sign, you really need to read it. Things you excluded on your scope often get added back in, as well as new scope items you may have never even heard of. Pay special attention for items 11, 35, and 45 above, those items get added back in the most often in my world.

Take a red pen and ruler and mark line out and initial the items you did not agree to on your scope. Every now and then you will get a GC that screams bloody murder that, “you cant change their contract”…well guess what, you can. I do it all the time, as well as attach my scope letter to the actual contract as “exhibit A” and note that it is attached below where I sign.

Other items to note:
Sales Tax- Just because they are an out of state contractor does not mean they are exempt from paying sales tax in your state.
Schedule- does it fit your bid?
Change Orders- Does it specify who can sign for them?
Surveying and layout- Who does it?
Insurance Requirements- Do you have enough coverage.

Part-3 Project Management

Submittals- If its commercial contract work, then do submittals. I just can’t stress enough, how important this is. It only takes 10 minutes to find cut-sheets on the net for devices, floor boxes, pipe, and wire; make the supply house do the gear and fixtures for you, then submit them for approval. ANYTHING the owner or GC does not like, they can make you replace or remove at your expense if you do not have an approved submittal for the materials you used. If you have a approved submittals for your material, if they owner, architect, or GC wants to make a change then you get an opportunity to get your change order book out. The money I lost learning this lesson would put my kids through collage.

RFI- If you have a question put it in writing. Its called a Request For Information, and it can be the first step to getting a change order, or it can be the document that saves your but when the design of the project does not fit the intent.

Change Orders- Do not do changes without a written change order OR a written NTP (Notice To Proceed) from the person who is authorized to approve changes. If you don’t know who that is read your contract, and if you still don’t know, write an RFI.

Document your work- Take pictures of your work and the job as a whole. Get a job calendar and make notes of the milestones. Let’s say the GC was supposed to have the walls up on 6/15 and they did not go up until 7/1, make a note of it because when owner is expecting to move in on 7/15 your schedule just got compressed by 2 weeks and the sheet rocker is not even on the job anymore.

On every job I have ever done all I needed to finish was 100 electricians for one day…or at least that is what the GC always wants. When your schedule gets compressed the GC will start screaming that you don’t have enough labor and it’s your fault he can’t finish on time. This is when you break out the schedule, your pictures and job calendar out to start discussing a change order for impact. You won’t get it, but the GC will start working with you instead of just screaming at you.
shocked ITO, it sounds to me like you could put together an article for publication, or even a book, on this subject. It seems like you must have a wealth of anecdotes where you'd just have to change the names. I would definitely want to read it, either way! smile
ITO, that was some of the most useful information ever posted on this forum. Thank you.
I have to agree with mahlere and was thinking that when i first read the post.
Posted By: ITO Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/05/07 03:00 AM
Thanks guys, if I get more time next weekend I will write some more.
Posted By: e57 Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/06/07 04:05 AM
Kudo's ITO!!! Much to absorb there...

FYI the "Contracting is about contracts" thing I posted ealier is from a guy I worked for many years ago, who had occassion to mutter that to himself out loud. He had occassional twitches as well as sever alcoholism, a divorce and at least two audits... crazy
ITO:
I have to say "BRAVO". I was one of the fortunate few who eventually eliminated ALL the PITA GC's, and stayed steady with two (2) good ones, and a few prop mgt co's.

I would like to print your above post & hand it out to some of my students at County Vo-tech next semester...OK?

John
Posted By: ITO Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/07/07 03:25 AM
Only if you correct my typos first.
Posted By: ITO Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/12/07 03:08 AM
Quote
36) Task Lighting- Read up on what OSHA says is adequate temporary lighting, and then compare it to what the painters say they need to do their work. No matter what you put in your bid for temporary lights, it’s never enough so make sure your temporary lights are on an allowance and make it clear that the other trades need to provide their own task lighting.


As a follow to that statement;
OSHA Regulations (Standards-29 CFR)
Illumination. 1926.56
Table D-3 MINIMUM ILLUMINATION INTENSITIES IN FOOT_CANDLES

General Construction- 5 foot candles.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10630

The Painter wanted 50 foot candles today and I had to go find the article again.

Great info. Thanks for sharing!
Posted By: joncon Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/23/07 02:34 AM
Learn to trust your instincts. If someone says something that "aint quite right", look into it a little deeper. It's called a red flag. Learn to recognize them and walk away or make adjustments.

Don't assume ANYTHING...ESPECIALLY when it comes to money.
I would say that your first step to avoid getting taken is to keep your eye on the target.
That is, if you're there to power the A/C, you're there to power the A/C. Not to fix the furnace, set up the scaffolding, or do anything else. If the A/C turns out to be something else ... you're back to the very beginning ..... I don't care how similar the job appears.
The same applies to payment. If your terms are 'net in 30' ... that does not mean 'after inspection,' or 'some now, more later,' or 'make it up on the next job.' Every change order is a separate transaction, and what happens there has no relevance to the original deal.
I stress this, because one of the primary hustles out there is to continually shuffle things about, until nobody knows what's happening - or who will make it happen. Keep your eye on your target ... or it will cost you money.

The GC is responsible for two things: scheduling and picking up the trash. OK, three- if you need a toilet as well. If he doesn't do his part, you don't need him.

The first key to getting paid is to know your customer. Never risk more than you can afford to lose. I've told many I would be happy to work the next job .... AFTER I get paid for the last one. Oops, gee, I guess they just forgot to pay me.
Structure the payments so you are never in trouble with the supply house. I've seen too many guys get shut down by the supply house .... all because some CUSStomer was playing games.

It gets back to knowing your customer. No matter the paperwork, you'll never come out ahead when dealing with a scoundrel. Don't waste your time.

Know the risk you are taking, and operate your business to compensate. For example, if your business model depends on a continual flow of new customers .... make darn sure to get some money first, and charge more. Keep in mind that you don't know anything about these folks, appearances can be deceiving, and be ready to play hardball. Even paranoids can have enemies.

Finally, it matters not what is "customary," or what the "other guy" does. Have your model, and stick to it.

Honesty is critical- especially to yourself. If something isn't working, it is far to easy to make excuses, and waste more time following a failed practice.
Posted By: ITO Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/25/07 12:32 PM
I am in contract negotiations now and a few more things came up, and Renos comment touched on it too.

Dumpsters and trash hall off.
Furnishing a dumpster and paying to have it emptied is a general condition that the GC should pick up. If you put that in your bid you would not be low, so look out for GCs that want to slip this in your contract, becuase its his dumpster not yours.

Cleaning
You are responsible for your own clean up. Do it every day and NEVER under any circumstance agree to a “composite clean up crew”. Watching my licensed electricians clean up a giant pile of sheet rock the sheet rocker left for the composite crew made me want to cry. When the composite crews start, the messy trades tend to stop cleaning up as they go and leave giant piles of trash because they know the other trades will have to help them clean it up later.

Temporary Toilets
It’s a general condition too, and on a few occasions I have had this slipped back into my contract. Keep an eye out for it.

New Laws
Keep up on the new laws coming out that may concern you and your business. It helps to join a trade organization or network like we do in here.

There is a new law here in Texas that starts September, which has a huge impact on my business. As of September 2007 General Contractors can no longer write or execute the “pay when we get paid” clause. In the past most contracts stipulated that they GC was not obligated to pay our draw until they were funded by the owner; well now they have to pay net 30 regardless if they have been paid or not. Whooo Hoooo that’s one for the home team!!!!
Posted By: cookcc Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/26/07 04:22 AM
You guys are very helpful and I will be tuning in alot more after reading this.
Thanks alot.
Posted By: techie Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/30/07 06:40 AM
The original XLS spreadsheet link has expired.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: StreetWise 101 How to avoid getting taken - 06/30/07 10:19 PM
ITO,
Good point about cleaning up.
It is actually written on my standard contract here that I will clean up "any trade debris that my work creates", not the builders, the plumbers or the painters work, my work only.
I carry an old bucket with me as I work around a site and drop wire ends and other rubbish in it as I go.
However, having to clean up other trades rubbish is just not on at all!
Look after Number One is the way to go.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned. I've found some GC's may be hard to get along with and want you to bend over backwards for them. Some are a bit arrogant at times. But what I've found is that if you have a crew who is mindful of their responsibilities, knows what they're doing and get the job done, the GC's are much easier to get along with. It's when you start causing them headaches due to poor workmanship, not following the prints as to the location of devices, not reading the notes and causing them delays and rework etc is when they start to eat your lunch.

I've found most GC's to be very reasonable. If you do your job well and don't cause headaches for them they will look forward to working with you again. I've even had contractors offer me more money for a change than I asked for or told me to increase my bid by x $thousand dollars. If you cause them problems they are going to give it back to you.
I had a plumber buddy tell me once about negotiating with a "slap-em-together" tract home company that their price proposal was unrealistic and gave him a 5% loss on each house "I can starve at home without wearing out my tools" he said -I kinda took that to heart. If you let someone draw you into price only competition you will lose every time
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