So what do you say to a homeowner after old working an outlet into a 100 year old plaster wall leaving a less than desirable...well...hole.

This was one of the worst case scenarios but today buy the time we worked the wire down to the existing box and fumbled with getting it into the box enough plaster had crumbled away leaving a large gap next to the outlet...

My mind says...risks of the work...my conscience says fix it for the sake of your customer...I just can't even think of how to explain the situaton to someone who I know kows very little about remodeling type jobs...

What would you say to this customer and how would you handle this situation??

I would fix it and charge for my time and material.

Upgrade to Quad box for free?

Goof plate?

Drywall compound

I'd brush all loose material and dust out for a good key. Then fill the void/cracks with a stiff paste of "Polyfilla" not sloppy- I think you call it spackle? "Polyfilla" is very strong and expands very slighyly on setting. Leave it slightly below the surface, not proud. I use old expired credit cards for the fiddly bits round boxes, excellent tools! I'm not going to insult your intelligence as an electrician about safety. As soon as it sets, which may be an hour, [ Polyfilla is a mix of hemi-hydrated plasters and cellulose flour ], lay on a finish coat:- Flush to the original plaster surfaces with a sheetrock / [UK plasterboard] finishing plaster, [usually pink], larruped-up with a spackle blade as flush as possible. This stuff sets quite fast. As soon as it seems to be setting, but before it goes right off, run a damp sponge over it. This action raises a sort of thin plaster 'cream', which can be sponged flush into the surrounding old plasterwork. For a super finish, trowel it [ UK "polishing off" ] with the flat [ not edge] of a spackle blade or a plasterer's steel float. Needs paint of course, but the client needs to be told not to paint it till it's completely dry. Notice, no sandpaper - you can always see the marks under the paint. As an alternative to the board finish, I have tried 'Polyfilla fine finish', which is a paste already made up, again using an old credit card in tight places. Works fine, just a bit more pernickerty to get the perfect finish, [ and more expensive ].

Alan

I rarely encounter plaster in the area where I am, but I feel your pain. I cut my teeth in this business doing service work in New Jersey. I dealt with a lot of plaster and lath in old houses. I don't have a simple solution for your problem, but I do have a few suggestions:

1. When cutting in a box, keep it as close as possible to the stud. They are harder to locate, but worth the extra effort. When cutting through the wooden lath, do it by hand with a coarse-toothed hacksaw blade, not a Sawzall or similar tool. Make the vertical cut to the lath on the side of the box FURTHEST from the stud first. The stud will provide more stability to the lath on the short piece left closest to it. Using a Roto-Zip tool is perhaps the best way to cut this hole.

2. Make sure that the box cutout includes one full lath width through the horizontal center and half a width above and below this full lath width.

3. Score the cutout with a SHARP knife and keep this scoring well within (1/8") of the actual necessary opening. If it's a tricky installation, then narrow it to 1/4" from the final opening.

4. Get the cable(s) fished in THEN prepare your final opening for the box. Again, a Roto-Zip tool will make the fine-tuning of the opening easier, but you'll need to leave the cable(s) inside the wall cavity while you do this. Don't let them slip away!

5. If you follow this procedure, all you should need to carry with you is a tube of basic toothpaste to cover basic cracks or chips that might occur during the final box placement that can't be covered by the plate.

True, it takes a LOT longer to cut the opening twice, but you will eventually get a feel for it and only need to cut once.

[This message has been edited by EV607797 (edited 02-01-2007).]

What would be nice would be to find some sort of spray on stuff that you could use to hold all that stuff together and not fall apart. Luckly for me, I almost never run into it much. They used to make walls out of tounge and groove redwood around here.

This is where the roto zip is your friend. I use a tile bit to cut out the plaster then a wood bit to cut the lathe. It is the least damaging way to do it as the cut comes out perfect. Then I follow up with some #4 wood screws.
I also always tell the customer old plaster is just that, old and damage may happen but i do my best to minimize it and would patch it if I did damage. It's part of the job

It is, undoubtedly.

I'd fix it, unless it was excluded on my bid. Live and learn.

Bob, you must have an evil twin posing as Iwire!! 314.21




[This message has been edited by electure (edited 02-03-2007).]

It sucks to have to go back and patch the hole for free, but this afterall your business and your customer. How you want to treat them is up to you. I can tell you that if you cut a hole in one of my walls and did not come back to fix it you wouldn't be working in my house again.

I think the ROTO-ZIP is a great tool but it makes an awful lot of dust when cutting plaster walls. So instead of using the ROTO-ZIP to cut out for the box, I like to do what I call the "swiss cheese method."

First, I use a PENCIL to mark out my box (I prefer to use an old-work metal gem box because it usually fits just right in between 2 cutout pieces of lathe). Then I use a half-inch Irwin speed bit and gently chip-away the plaster until just the lathe is left. Then I use the ROTO-ZIP to cut out the lathe. Now I'm ready pull the wire and attach the box using long leg Madison bars.

Good luck.

The plaster will hold together better if you put the blue painters tape on the wall before you cut it. After cutting the hole (and through the blue tape) pull the remaining tape off.

Always keep quick set 5 min easy sand in the truck with a 6" knife for such situations. Also like the lightwieght stuff in the plastic container. It works on small holes only. I draw the line on painting. I have gotten plenty of work because I included patching.

Ob

Hello

for old work patching is part of the job...

the best repair for old plaster is durabond 90 or 45 (hot mud) mix as thick as you can, and let it cure untill almost hard but can be shaved with a putty knife for a big hole use metal lath

a sheet of metal lath and a bag of durabond will cost under 15 bucks you don't need to carry much, just a few small pieces of lath and a coffee can of durabond will be plenty for a service truck.

incidently for repairs in wood molding I prefer rock hard water putty

Tag Taggart

Plaster is very hard to work, I know because I have done alot of plaster wall, I have found the the best way is to use painter taps mark out the box and get a new sheetrockers jab saw drill the corners and cut slow. if possible I try to cut the plaster first then go after the lath (if Wood) you may run into rock lath which is an early version of sheet rock. Most of the damage comes when trying to snake the wire. The best method for this is Jack chain with a weighted end(if coming top down) if going bottom up use a snake with a smaller piece to reteive. Never attempt to put your hand in the hole this could be very damaging to the plaster.Also look @ wall fromside priop tu cutting you can ussually tell where the plaster is loose and try to avoid cutting there and tell the home owner up front that there is the potential that you will have to possibly repair wall @ an added cost.

when dealing with older plaster...make sure the owner knows you'll do your best, but "patching" may be required...
and that "antique" wallpaper might not be able to be matched...
i put in some switches in a dining room where half the wall fell away!! glad i mentioned "patching by others"!!!

[This message has been edited by electricbill (edited 02-28-2007).]

Spackle, lightweight or not, hardens in the winter if left out in the truck in temperatures below freezing. Liquid nails and caulk too! This is usually the case for me. I keep a box of plaster of Paris on the truck. It's worked well for me. You just got to work fast because hardens quickly.