I've got some tension among employees because they've been sharing their paystubs and getting up in arms about pay. I don't have a ton of defense because I have hired people at different times and under different circumstances and thus have offered various rates of pay. My problem is that I don't know what I should be paying someone with no experience as opposed to someone with 5 years experience and so on...

Anyone have any info, feedback, suggestions, etc on how to determine one's pay??

Thanks,
Mike

Fire them all. All at once. Take a picture of them as they are leaving the workplace. Make a big poster of that and hang it in your shop. Make sure to explain what the significance of the poster is to your new replacement crew. Did you open your shop for your sake or for that scurvy crew?

Aren't having employees fun? I've had similar problems - mainly comparing my rate scales with other companies. When they start complaining or comparing, I tell them "If the grass is greener.......".

[This message has been edited by Sixer (edited 03-11-2007).]

Where I work all journeymen get paid the same rate, makes no difference if youve been there one year like myself or the guy thats been there for 15 years, once your 90 day probation is up you get the full rate. The apprentices get paid according to what year of school they are in. I was told the payrate is like this because of previous paycheck comparing problems and it makes accounting easier.

lone,

i'd be pissed in this situation. Why should i be paid the same as that guy that play hide and seek all week?

Why should I bust my ass and get the same rate as him?

conversly, if I was to be a slacker, this is great. Make it through 90 days and then coast...

but les, what if my slacking is the same as the other guys best? Should I be punished?


yes, I am playing devils advocate

"Where I work all journeymen get paid the same rate, makes no difference if youve been there one year like myself or the guy thats been there for 15 years, once your 90 day probation is up you get the full rate."

I agree with that totally, however I only have one journeyman working for me so I'm able to increase his pay as he gains more experience. Of course if I end up bringing on a second journeyman, I won't be able to do that - he will start at whatever I'm paying my current journeyman.

I also have to consider paying journeymen more in order to retain them. They are few and far between in this area, so there has to be some incentive for them to stay.

There are crews and teams that get very efective at lowering the bar in unison for all. They will try to convince you that they are not slacking," why I am installing just as well as all the other employee's here do. You are just expecting too much production out of us poor devils......" Think goverment employee's for a good example of that.

"There are crews and teams that get very efective at lowering the bar in unison for all."

All the more reason to have flat rate schedule, good for the customer, and good for the employee, the hours are actuals, and the job conditions are taken into account, so any slack in preformance, can be measured, on the other side, slackers love T&M, it has no measured time, so preformance can become an argument.

Sixer, All of our journeymen can pretty much handle whatever we may run into on a service truck, least experienced guy has 6 years or so in the trade. Some guys are better at certain tasks than others, the managers job is too match the task with the best guy for the job. I am not good at running conduit, I can if I have to but it takes me forever to get it to look good but I do most of the control wiring and troubleshooting so like I said it equals out.

Electricians are in very high demand here in SE Florida so they pay well to keep us around.

Information.

A commonly held view... which is a matter of religious belief in Eastern Europe, and some other backward places... holds that all information is a valuable commodity, to be hidden away, and never shared. Sad to say, most management types seem to think along these lines.

The other view was expressed by Adam Smith, in his "Wealth of Nations." The free flow of information in the marketplace resulted in a "hidden hand' that directed things in the most useful directions.

So where am I going with this? Documentation- and sharing it, publicly, as soon as possible. The employees are your "marketplace," and they NEED this feedback!

It's probably not possible to post every day for every man. It most certainly is possible to post every job when it closes! On bigger jobs, a continuing tally can be posted.

Such a posting would be simple: Price of job, money for materials, money (or hours) for labor. Let the guys see how they're really doing, in a timely manner.

If the crew sees that, say, Joe is consistantly coming in under target... and know that Joe is getting paid more... watch their attitudes change!
Likewise, if they see that Joe's jobs bring in more money than theirs, they won't begrudge him his pay.

There are other issues... that's what management is all about... but honest, real figures are where you must start.

Great idea John, no doubt it would also start some friendly competition.

Dear Happi,
Im a 47 year old third year apprentice. When I started the machine shop had closed and I left earning 23.00 Per hour. At the beginning of my apprenticeship I started out at 8.50 per hour. Halfway thru my third year im at 13.00 per hour. Im well paid for a apprentice but I never asked or squaked about money. I appreciated the chance to learn a new trade some thing i always wanted to try. In return both my employers have had their trucks cleaned ( on my own time) parts inventoried and put into a computer. Never late nor taken a day off. If they squak too much get rid of them. Their are plenty of people who need to work. Its your trucks, your workmans comp,your insurance, if they are unhappy be some where else.
Sorry if I got out of hand, but I even pay all my own health insurance, But im happy. If they dont like it leave, I know a few people who would probably love to work for you,
Steve

My current pay rate is never enough. I want more, and deserve to be paid more. I work late, I work Saturdays, I teach helpers who've never worked a day in their lives in the electrical industry how to do effective electrical work, I meet with homeowners, meet with inspectors, write-up punchlists, job orders, billing, I also explain to customers the best way to do a job, what I'm exactly doing and why Im doing it, talk to the boss on my own time when he might have a question about a job, etc, etc.

But in the end, I believe my pay is based solely on my experience and whatever the free-market dictates. I am a free agent who is always looking for the best opportunity so that I can succeed further in my career. Next stop? Licensed and Insured Electrical Contractor (Owner/ Operator).

Excuse me for babbling on, and on, and on.... and on.

As much as it is owners choice to 'flat rate' the pay it is my choice to tell them goodbye.

I'll be damed if I accept the same pay as the less motivated regardless of how much the office tries to 'iron it out'.

The office does not know as much about the slackers as they think.

Do you really feel each of you employees is indeed equal? Are they all interchangeable?

I agree with Shockme77 to a large extent.

I am an asset to the company that they will have to pay for. If not I find someone that can.

JMO, Bob

Bob, The company I work for pays the highest in the area. The lazy and the screwups are weeded out during the 3 month probation period. I could see your point if the company was paying below or average wages across the board. You'd leave a job for a new job for less pay just so you are making more than others who work there?

here is the million $ question, if each journeyman is not worth the same $, why should it be ok for a contractor to charge a customer the same t&m labor rate for the different guys?

i mean theoretically on a T&M basis, the best guy (the one that costs the contractor the most) will get the job done quickest (meaning less billable hours to the customer. am I off base here?

btw - all our guys get different rates based on their production (which we can measure fairly easily on service work.)

Without a doubt, to a point, make it enough money and I might stay.

I would be concerned about the companies longevity if they are paying the highest wages for all their employees.

Some of those employees are not worth the above average wages.

I have bitten my nose to spite my face in matters of money.

I walked away from a great paying job when they where to slow reimbursing me for legitimate expenses (stock purchases for the job)

JMO, Bob

Bob, like I said before, the dead wood is weeded out early. The company has been in business for 40 years, they arent going anywhere anytime soon.

I agree with you on walking for reasons like slow reimbursement or if they try to screw you on OT or any money related matter. I'd leave over $10 if it were my $10.

I totally agree.


I've been there, done that. In fact, earlier this year I left a really good, organized company because of that. I was working with another mechanically able electrician on a 400amp multi-family dwelling service done in parallel with 3/0. I was cutting the lengths of copper at 30-31' so that they would long enough for the drip loop (you know, better to be a mile too long than an inch too short).

Anyway, the lengths of wire should have been cut 28'. So, after cutting 7 of the 8 conductors I was left with about 7' of conductor for the final run.

In the end, I had to run out to the supply house and buy another 28' length to finish the job. A month later $80.00 was taken out of my check to pay for the wire. I thought that sucked, and quit a week later. It was an honest mistake, don't F with my paycheck.

Not to get off topic but is that even legal?

ShockMe77, your the kind of employee we like, looking to do the job right the first time, sounds like the guy, who ran that company, needs some training himself, both in planning, and in employee practices.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 09-09-2006).]

"Not to get off topic but is that even legal?"

Illegal here. You can't go after employee's wages if they drop a $300 drill and break it beyond repair. You CAN, however, write them up with a warning....too many warnings let them go.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me.

If you went out and took the risks of running your own business and you want to pay everyone the same rate that is certainly your choice to make. If it works for you and your employees great.

As a matter of my personal choice I would not care to work like that.

I also don't want anyone to think is all I do is take from the company.

I bust my rear to be looked at as one of the key guys they come to. You need me to work strange hours, work in bad conditions, make it through a blizzard to take care of a customer and I will be just a call away.

Bob

there is a matter of loyalty,to consider!all companise expect emloyee loyalty,but they do not return it!for examplemy company we are responsible for keeping track of our own hours,we report in at the end of the day with a job update and our hourse for the day "trust"there are those who will abuse this.they dont last long.our boss "the owner" will be your best freand,your big brother,even your dad if you need him he is always there to help you,"in or out of work".he knows all of us on a persanel leval.we are realy a family.if we want to know how much money a job made ,he will pull out the file and share all the info with us.if we want more money he will sit us down and tell us exactly what we need to do to get it.I am forman on a lot of jobs. "that dose not meen that I'm the highest payed guy on the job".we get payed acording to what we are wourth and how much we make for the company.
imho any company that dose not pay an employee what they are worth is not showing them any respect,loyalty,and should not expect any in return.

LK, it's nice to know that you would consider me an asset to a company and the type of guy you seek to employ. I really appreciate hearing that from a business owner such as yourself. Thank you.

As far as the employer that took money from my paycheck to pay for an honest mistake I had made, I'm pretty sure I Told you a few months ago who the business owner was. I will not make public the companys name. I will say this though, the man is very reputable and is also chairman of the board of local electrical contractors association. I have to believe that what he did was legal because was the most professional contractor I ever worked for.

Shockme,


Even if it is legal in his area, it isn't right. Taking money from an employee for making an honest effort to ensure that the project goes as smoothly as possible, isn't in the best interest of the company or the employee.

That is an example of how you reward those who don't think for themselves and don't care about much more than themselves, while slamming the employees you need the most... the thinkers, the people who are most interested in taking care of your business...


JMO... but the people that I want to work for me, are those who understand the difficulties of operating a profitable business, and are looking out for the best interest of the the company and the customers. These are the people who will help you build your business long term... and the guys who deserve the utmost of loyalty from the company...