ECN Forum
Posted By: Dnkldorf Interesting reading. - 08/19/06 12:36 PM
Read this and compare it to all those books and companies who want to make you rich in electrical contracting.
http://smallbusiness.aol.com/grow/o...kered-by-ebay-scams/20060810153209990001
Posted By: ExpressQuote Re: Interesting reading. - 08/20/06 03:56 AM
In response to Dnk's suggestion to read the article "Don't Get Suckered by eBay Scams" by Marsha Collier from Entrepreneur.com

I'd like to take a moment to point out a few truths about this article.

In the section Myth #1: “You’ll Make Big Bucks!”

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Hidden in these promises for money is an important fact: There's a difference between gross and net sales--something, it seems, that many of the people making these claims can't distinguish between. Business 101 tells us that gross sales means the total amount of money we take in, and net sales equals the money we have left over after deducting our costs of doing business. Ah, there's the rub! An eBay seller can climb their way to $150,000 a month Titanium Power Seller status, but remember: that status is based on gross sales! After deducting all their costs, their actual net sales may be much less.

This is key, you must charge for your services which include all materials costs, labour costs, estimating, overhead, vehicle expenses, insurance, lighting in the office, telephone, and all that other good stuff and Don’t Forget Profit. Does it make sense to work your guts out, let your family life slide, max out your credit cards all in the name of customer service and then have your business fail because you didn’t charge enough to cover your overhead and make a profit to set aside for your retirement?

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In addition to that, a Titanium Power Seller (or any eBay seller) could be losing money by the bucketful and not realize it. And often many are!


This is true for many electrical contractors as well. We all know that electricians work hard, but why should they earn less than plumbers, carpenters, oil change techs or government employees? If you are not charging enough to cover your costs and allowing for some profit, you are losing money!

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The higher the number of listings and the more money comes in, the more of a chance there is of mistaking busy work for success. Many sellers follow the common theory that they'll grow their businesses by listing thousands of items on eBay and watch the money roll in.

A common joke bantered around is “I’m losing money on every job, but that’s ok, I’ll make it up in volume.” The truth is if you are losing money on every, or even most projects; it doesn’t matter how many projects you do, you’ll never get ahead!

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Sellers who actually run businesses in this fashion end up spending money as it comes in, rather than deducting their expenses, paying their bills and seeing what's left. What counts on eBay is your sell-through rate, or how many of your listings actually sell.

You can take the time to learn through the school of hard knocks, finding at the end of the money you still have way too much month left. Or, you can learn from those who have taken the time to learn the skills you need to be successful. It doesn’t matter how many dollars worth of projects you sell, or even the number of projects you sell in a month. What does matter is how much money you make after all the bills are paid. Also, just as importantly, it matters how much free time you have to spend with your family and for yourself.

A tradesperson I know has jokingly developed working philosophy of his own. He says, “We work for free or not at all!” Does this sound like your business? It doesn’t have to be that way.

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Myth #2: “I Did It, Now Let Me Teach You!”

Who is this person? Another thing that impresses me when reading these missives is that often the "instructor" is someone who has interviewed many successful eBay sellers but has only sold one type of item (and they've only been at it for a short period of time).

From what I have seen in this and several other forums, you have a strong representation of people you know and trust who are from the trade just like yourselves. I too am an electrician and have had several companies…. Most of which failed because I had not learned the means to quote projects profitably. It was only after I went to work for other contractors who were successful that I learned how to make a profit and then designed my systems to ensure that no matter who I worked for, I could ensure the profitability of my projects. It took me over 14 years to perfect my systems, how long do you want to take?

The companies that are promoting themselves to help your businesses, I believe are primarily focused on the objective of helping others in their industries develop the skills that are needed to be successful…. Skills that they themselves have had a difficult time learning, but once discovered changed their outlook on their industry and dramatically improved their success rate. Does this mean that all are this upstanding, No, but if you take the time to look at what they are offering, you should be able to make your own quality value judgement.

Some might not believe an accountants advice, as he is a “bean counter.” A numbers guy. All he or she cares about is making money and handling it, but doesn’t know anything about running a real business, like yours. Well, just because someone has chosen a different career, doesn’t mean that they don’t have useful knowledge to share …. It is up to the individual to relate the information shared into something constructive for his or her own business.

Are there scams out there? You Betcha!

Are there individuals and companies out there who are trying to improve your business? You Betcha!

I had the opportunity to speak to a successful contractor early on in my trades career and he explained learning in this way. He said, "Find those who are as successful as you want to be and learn from them and their success."

Don’t close your eyes to the possibility of improving yourself and your business. Keep an open mind and question those who offer to help. Why do they think they can help your business? Where does their knowledge come from? Why are they taking the time to share this information with others? Why don’t they keep this information all to themselves so that they are the only ones who have the benefit? Just maybe, you’ll discover that they are just like you…. They have been down the road that you are now treading and they want to help you succeed beyond their own success.

Look at Mahlere, Romex Racer, LK, and all the others who are always sharing advice and at the same time, they are always asking questions. They are looking for new ways to improve their businesses and at the same time checking out individuals who claim to be offering to improve your business. They understand what is needed, what needs to be done, and what scams are. Ask for advice and don’t be afraid to try that advice… some will work for you and some won’t, but you are the only one who can discover the truth of your own success.

Don’t be afraid to try something because there are a few very vocal sceptics. Take the time to ask questions, to learn and improve. And if it works out for you, try the people who offer to help. There is no harm in trying, but there can be considerable costs in not learning.

Wishing you all the best in your businesses!

And when your success comes, share it with others. Why, because it feels really good to know that you are helping others to improve and in so doing it improves the lively hoods of countless others in the form of better customer service, better employee relations and fellow tradespersons and business people who can better support their families and charities. I guess that is a little selfish… taking pride in helping others… hmmmm! Just some food for thought.



[This message has been edited by ExpressQuote (edited 08-20-2006).]
Posted By: mahlere Re: Interesting reading. - 08/20/06 02:29 PM
Thanks expressquotes. I can't speak for anyone but myself. I haven't noticed too many people coming on here looking to sell anything. The few that have, have been run off real quick by the moderators. I personally believe in karma. I believe that if I help someone now, that good will come back to me. If I don't help, then the bad will come back.

I have also stated that there is nothing new out there. All of the information is public domain. The question is whether you want to spend years of your life acquiring this information, or if you want to pay someone to do it for you.

As I have also stated, any of the information that I've ever passed along (except for a few small ideas and opinions) are not my thoughts. They are things that I have learned from people much smarter than myself. People like Frank Blau, Maurice Maio, Ellen Rohr, Al Levi, etc. If you've never heard of these people, it's because they are all plumbers. Pick up a copy of Plumbing and Mechanical magazine (or go to PMmag.com) and be prepared to learn more about running a service business in 30 min, than in your 10+ years of strictly electrical training.

The electrical industry is so far behind the times in regards to res/lt comm service work, there is no way we could possibly come up with anything new. We are behind everyone. Open up your local yellow pages. Look at your ads for electrical contractors. Now look at the ads for HVAC and plumbing. Now save these ads. In about 3-5 yrs, compare those electrical ads to this years HVAC and plumbing.

You can easily dismiss anything you don't agree with. But like expressquotes said (paraphrase) 'you can learn from the school of hard knocks, or you can learn from other peoples bumps and bruises'

Me, i'm too pretty to have a bunch of bumps and bruises, so i like to learn from other peoples mistakes.

However, realize that any system is only as good as it's operator. But there are basic business truths that apply to all of us. Know your costs and make more money than your costs. Whether you choose to determine your costs first, then earn enough to cover them. Or earn first and cut your costs so that they are covered is up to you. I choose to earn enough to cover the costs that let me live how I like.

Now, if everyone would just paypal me $100 I will share all the secrets to fame and fortune. You will have girls throwing themselves at you. 100 cars in your garage. Houses on every continent. send it to 'itsnotallascam@yahoo.com'

But seriously, if you read the boards and keep an open mind, you will find a wealth of information. If you don't want to spend $, spend your time looking at the information that is shared. Who want's to take a side bet?

I'll offer 2 -

1) 80% of the viewers of this board (not just posters- but viewers) have never heard of P&M Mag.

2) 80% of the people who read this post, won't take the 30 mins out of their day to go to P&M's site and read the editorials.

Who wants to take the over-unders?
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: Interesting reading. - 08/20/06 03:08 PM
Thanks for the tip, mahlere, I just signed up for a free subscription [Linked Image] Our ME just retired, and due to our lack of ME work at the moment, my boss wants to hold off hiring his replacement, and is leaning on me to pick up the slack... Not that I've had time to read the ECMs piling up on my desk, but the intention is there, right?

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 08-20-2006).]
Posted By: mahlere Re: Interesting reading. - 08/24/06 10:58 AM
anyone besides steve look at the P&M site yet? If you are a residential/lt commercial service electrician (contractor) it would be a tremendous education. And it's FREE.
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Interesting reading. - 08/24/06 03:23 PM
Well yes, as a matter of fact you turned me onto this great source about 3 years or so ago. I check it on a regular basis. Thanks again, you guru you.......
Posted By: mahlere Re: Interesting reading. - 08/24/06 10:23 PM
yeah, but you already forgot more than I know. You're just smart enough to stay quiet. I'm still too young [Linked Image]

do you find it useful for the service side of what you do?
Posted By: CDS Re: Interesting reading. - 08/24/06 11:37 PM
Not familiar with P&M
What and where is it
Searched internet , is it a plumbing mag ?
Excuse my ignorance
Posted By: mahlere Re: Interesting reading. - 08/25/06 12:47 AM
yep. www.pmmag.com

plumbing and mechanical mag, but it's geared towards resi/lt commercial service contracting.
Posted By: LK Re: Interesting reading. - 08/25/06 02:34 AM
The plumbing and mechanical guys, you know, the ones that have nice trucks, live in nice homes, and take real vacations, the odd balls, they are a bit nuts, they actually think their work has value.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 08-24-2006).]
Posted By: mahlere Re: Interesting reading. - 08/25/06 02:54 AM
LK, you are starting to sound cynical [Linked Image]
Posted By: Rich R Re: Interesting reading. - 08/25/06 05:49 AM
I did good this week, I actually made enough profit to by bait and a fishing pole so I can catch dinner for next week

[This message has been edited by Rich R (edited 08-25-2006).]
Posted By: mahlere Re: Interesting reading. - 08/25/06 10:54 AM
well, you got that going for you, which is good.

let me know when you can get the lobster and steak. [Linked Image]
Posted By: LK Re: Interesting reading. - 08/25/06 11:12 PM
"LK, you are starting to sound cynical"

There are many on the forum, that have offered good business advice, including yourself, that is about all you can do, is offer.

The good news is, there are many younger EC's taking on the challange of running a business, they are soaking up all the information, on operating a business for both growth, and profit, these young gents, see themself, as having something of value to offer, that is, their combination of trade, and business skills, i have confidence, they will lead this industry to a new level.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Interesting reading. - 08/26/06 03:32 PM
Let's look at it this way...

Running a business is WORK. Sometimes that can leave you quite frazzled. Expenses, personnel issues, paperwork requirements, and- don't forget finding / keeping customers!

There are countless businesses out there. Some do well, while others fail. Whatever the product, whatever the service, the successful ones tend to have some things in common. Imitate & succeed.

Some claim there is some "secret" formula. Not true. Can another help you in areas where you lack competence? Sure- but you'll never take the "work" out of success.

Some folks are secretive about how they do things; I'm not sure why, as the 'secrets' invariable turn out to be stuff found in textbooks. Perhaps they're just not interested in having others question their choices.

For every "secrecy snob," there's a wildly successful, talkative person. This second group can't seem to stop writing about how they did it. Eddie Rickenbacker, Donald Trump, Sidney Biddle Barrows, Lee Iacocca... the list is endless. Read and learn.

As for the "Seminar Gurus," well... going to a seminar is sort of like going to church. You pay to hear someone extoll virtue- but never see THEM practice it! Maybe they do, but all you see is the show.
Posted By: LK Re: Interesting reading. - 08/26/06 04:46 PM
"Some claim there is some "secret" formula. Not true. Can another help you in areas where you lack competence? Sure- but you'll never take the "work" out of success."


Good Post!
Posted By: trevman Re: Interesting reading. - 08/27/06 05:38 AM
My last job as a employee was for a hvac control contractor we always worked for mechanical companies. mech contractors seem to like to take on many tasks like sprnklers plumbing sheetmetal boilers refrigeration controls. there like gcs. Im 1st year in business and my business plan is to latch on to mech contactors and feed off them, maybe my business may even turn into a mech electrical business in the future.It seems that mech cont. offer more value some how for there sertvices. As a employee(foreman)I noticed that mech guys were rarely concerned about time, compared to electrical contractors who were watching labour much more closely through out the job. Mahlere I always enjoy reading your posts and i will definetly check out pm
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Interesting reading. - 08/27/06 06:30 AM
Prayer works.
Posted By: ExpressQuote Re: Interesting reading. - 08/27/06 11:44 PM
In Response to Les' post,

I'd like to offer an excel spreadsheet that allows you to figure the right hourly rate price for your business.

If you send me an email, I will be happy to forward a copy of the hourly rate calculator that I have.

So, for anyone interested, send me an email...

Glen
Posted By: Tom H Re: Interesting reading. - 08/27/06 11:57 PM
When I started my business I wrote a busines plan. And one of the lines in my business plan was "stay home and stay even" and it was the best rule that I ever followed.

I picked an hourly rate based on cost plus profit based on what an employee would cost per hour plus company profit, even though I had no employee's at first, cause when I finally had them, it would have been an uphill battle to raise rates. I bid jobs and due T&M work with this rate. Some jobs I bid I get, some I don't. I make payroll every week, carry a simple health plan for me and my employees and maintain my vehicles best I can and I am currently only slightly in debt to my suppliers.

Some contractors accuse me of being too expensive, I said to one "If you don't want to pay me this, then don't hire me." He didn't. 8 weeks into the project, his hired electrician filed bankruptcy, walked off the job and stiffed him for an 8 grand. Funny thing is I was only 6 grand higher than that guy.
Posted By: mahlere Re: Interesting reading. - 08/28/06 01:09 PM
[q]I picked an hourly rate based on cost plus profit based on what an employee would cost per hour plus company profit, even though I had no employee's at first, cause when I finally had them, it would have been an uphill battle to raise rates.[/q]

tom, you hit the nail on the head with that statement. too many guys think that they can go real cheap when they start (since it's only them and they have no overhead) the problem comes when they need to hire help. The help won't perform at the level the owner performs at. The low rates won't cover the help. How do you go to a good customer that you've been working with for years and say

"I know my new guy isn't as good/fast/neat, efficiant/etc as me, but I have to charge you more for the lower level of competance"?

I haven't figured out how to do it without PO'ing the customer.
Posted By: LK Re: Interesting reading. - 09/02/06 06:44 PM
Dnk is right about avoiding scams, and they are out there, but there are also a large number of good contractors that operate in a professional way, and provide valuable services to the community at large.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 09-20-2006).]
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