Check out this link to see what some of us are up against.
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=260227

Jim,

Why should we be surprised that people don't feel we are worth any money? Contractors on this very board don't feel that we are worth any money.

If we can't even convince ourselves, how can we convince others?

Exactly why I don't want to deal with the general public.



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 04-14-2006).]

Would anyone really want to work for veronica or fuente? Then they wonder why their contractor experience turns into a nightmare. The line I hear all the time about low-bid contractors is "I tried to get him back but he isn't returning my calls".

Dave

But Tiger, how and where did they learn to think this way?

We've taught the general public to think this way for 100 yrs. Question our price and we drop our pants.

We don't have the ability to teach those in the industry about pricing, how can we teach those out of the industry?

I'm still waiting for the revolution. One day we (as a society) will wake up and figure out quality costs money. Right now people only seem to look at price.

How bout' that bonehead Fuente? " I had no intention of hiring an electrician, I just wanted to get bids to see how much I was going to save" and "my uncle was an electrician for 30 years". Nitwits like this I cant even post here how I feel about them.

I registered just to respond to that moron.

I just went to the site: "http://forum.doityourself.com" and looked around a bit.

I can only wonder how they do not kill themselves.

had to chime in. I quit this industry, anyone know an industry where you make alot of money and don't have to deal with people?

qoute:

"anyone know an industry where you make alot of money and don't have to deal with people"?

I would think that undertakers have very few complaints from their clients!

and their customers are dying to get in

ba-dump-bump

Mr Mahler
Could not agree with you more you really gave a reality check in your last post on doityourself.com
I guess people just don't really know the behind the scenes costs for a contractor these days. They all think why do I have to help pay your bills with these prices.

mahlere,
great response to "fuente" on the DIY forum.
everyone here should read it.
right now it's the last post, but I wouldn't be suprised if he responds with yet another insulting comment.

good job though.

We better leave fuente alone.
The implications are far too awesome to comprehend should we, mere mortals, interfere with the process of natural selection.

It's funny how niether one of them make sense.....


Redsy, you see the poster electricpro?
Kenny?
What is the world coming too?


Dnk..

Well said Mahlere at the end. Sorry I could not read it all with out getting worked up.

that tends to happen when talking to a wall. kind of like when you were a kid "i'm rubber, your glue, whatever you say...." or now that your an adult "don't let your facts get in the way of my good opinion"

fight the fight one at a time.

Well said Mahlere at the end. Sorry I could not read it all with out getting worked up.

"anyone know an industry where you make alot of money and don't have to deal with people"?

I would think that undertakers have very few complaints from their clients!

...and their customers are dying to get in.

Funny you should say that. I just gave an estimate to a gravestone company. Owner gives me the same old story, business is slow so I gotta give him a good price. My reply was, what's the matter, nobody dieing lately?

-Hal

hbiss,

no, they're still dying. he just meant that his customers move really slow

Look at what this guy said:

"This thread is somewhat comical. I needed a good laugh after a hard day. $65 per SWITCH? $125 per LIGHT? You've got to be kidding me.

So $800 to buy and install the cans and one switch.

About all you can do is laugh.

This install is not rocket science. Jeez, I wonder the cost is to install a new service panel...$500 per breaker??

Sorry if this is insulting to you pros, but if someone quoted me this I'd take it as an insult and kick him out of my house."

Is this guy on crack?

Those rates are fair, IMO. But then again my opinion is just a bit biased. Ya think? LOL. It's cheap bastards like this that I won't do work for no matter how bad I need the work, or money for that matter. He's the kind of customer that deserves to be charged $500 per OCPD!!!!

Yes, that entire thread just raised my blood pressure, for sure.

how about a new club for us, the 'I deal with the public and I need a lot of drinks' club.

who's in?

Dnk,

You really do not get it. I appreciate your effort to keep pulling the rest of contractors down to your level.

Any other contractor on this site that would like to actually earn a good living doing this work, let Dnk know your appreciation.

Thanks again,
Erik


[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 04-16-2006).]

Thanks Dnk,

You are truly my hero.

I don't own a business but none the less I was getting angry while reading that thread.

Than I realized 'consider the source' he was already looking like an idiot but once mahlere started posting fuente's short comings really where put on display.

mahlere Great professional posts.

Nothing but facts.

This post was just plain funny


So a company like McDonald's does not pass all it's costs onto the customer?

Inresting.....

thanks i-wire. I just wish we could at least get our industry to understand. It would be easier to just teach one group, rather than trying to teach the teachers as well.

Realize, that as an employee, this really pertains to you as well. I know you want to get paid a good salary, benefits, vacation, etc. In order to give you that compensation, that you have earned mind you, your boss must get that money from the customer.

Good luck.

I'd be a little leery of jumping all over someone who has the "wrong" view of things.

Free estimates? Promised low rates? For some, that's just part of their business model. While there are those who bank on things like change orders to boost their profits.... there are those who don't.

Just as some plan on a continual turn-over in their customer base, there are those who focus on a select few repeat customers.

And, of course, there are those who put the "Cuss" in customer!

I felt sorry for Veronica in that thread, she just wanted a little advice.

Dave

Quote: "So a company like McDonald's does not pass all it's costs onto the customer?"

They did a story, on the success of Mc Donald's, it appears the cost of the berger, is nothing, compared to getting the berger to you, all their costs are in ad's and providing services, the burger being the smallest cost.

Sounds something like our work!



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 04-16-2006).]

Mahlere As being part of that group of contractors that you inform about contracting and business i have really enjoyed your posts here and the other forum, I have learn lots from your posts . It has giving me a new perspective on striving to make a go of the EC business, i never had a plan before money was never looked at as money for development for my company , i never did costs before.
I had my girl friend enter 2 years of data into a cost calculator it opened my eyes.
i posted that i couldn't believe what my costs per hour were, doing service work.
You replied that they were in within reason.

You haven't wasted your time with some of us

Anyhow Happy Easter and will be looking forward to any of your business posts .
Thanks

mahlere, I have to agree with iwire. Great professional posts. I do not think I could respond as calmly as you did.

Another clueless DIYer!!! After all it is only black & white wires. Why does he need us? He read a book so he knows what he is doing.

DNK, where are you coming from??? Maybe you should take the job offer posted in that thread.

Al

We have been told in company meetings that 45% of our labor is spent on material handling issues, not electric work.

That being the case we do not hesitate to rent fork lifts and 'golf carts on steroids'. We own many pallet jacks and rolling shelfs that get moved from job to job.

The "getting it there" is a significant labor waster.

Actually this is such a big cost that about two weeks ago the shop held a training course for "Lulls" ( A brand name for all terrain telescoping forklifts).

In MA a hydraulic operators license is needed to operate these machines, but the up side is you can pick up a pallet deep in a trailer from the ground drive it across deep mud and stick it in a 5th floor window.

Fixtures, cable panels etc all get places on the their floors or the highest floor we can reach usually 3rd to 5th depending on pallet weight and access to the building.

Bob,

It took me a long time to wake up, and look at all the costs that i din't recover, yes 45% is pretty close, i was just following the pack, i only woke up when my wife said she had eniough, and was on her way out, either run it like a business, or get a job, thanks to help, from the bank, and other contractors, i was able to recover.

I see Veronica's thread has been locked at DIY

Cost is everything.

Perhaps it is time to realize that professional electrictians are not cost/time effective for doing residential work.

George,

I was looking at your profile, there is nothing listed, may i ask, if you work in the electrical contracting field?, and on what basis do you determine, electricians are not effective in residential work?

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 04-16-2006).]

George this is just my personal opinion and not that of ECN.

You are really out there.

Who would you recommend wire peoples homes?

Believe it or not even though the home shows make it look easy it is not.

Any fool can wire a light fixture, wiring an entire home safely and code compliantly is another issue altogether.

JMO, Bob

LK last I knew George was claiming to be an electrical engineer.

His posts are always a little 'different'.

Bob

This thread reminds me why I don't do residential remodels and service work anymore. About 12 years ago I was called out to give an estimate for the wiring of a total kitchen remodel. They were taking the walls down to the studs and installing all new drywall, wiring, cabinets and counters and appliances. It was over a non finished basement and the panel was right below the kitchen. I priced it all out and they accepted my estimate. They signed a contract and the next week I wrecked out the old electric and roughed in the new. 2 weeks later it was all set to finish and everything went perfect and I was done in one day. The customer asked me to add an outside recept. It was just a matter of popping through the mud sill and putting a w/p box on the patio so I did it at N/C. Then comes the HO trying to beat me down when it was time to settle up. Mind you, the bill was not one penny more than the estimate. This HO worked in an automotive factory as a laborer(one of the big 3). Since my estimate was priced per opening he asked what my hourly rate was. At the time it was $35.00 per hour. He went nuts! Said there was no way I was worth $35.00 an hour. He said he was only making $21.50 an hour. I backed him up a bit when I asked him who paid his health insurance, contributed to his retirement, paid 1/2 of his SS, and paid his vacation time. I told him if he figured all of that in he was making closer to $40.00 an hour. I, on the other hand, pay all of those things out of my $35.00 an hour PLUS pay for my tools, licensing, liability insurance and traveling expenses. On top of that I haul my whole shop to his house. I asked him how he'd feel if someone from the company met him at the timeclock every Friday to haggle him down on his paycheck. He shut up and paid me. I raised my rates the next week and started being more selective of remodel customers. I rarely do remodel/service work anymore unless it is through a GC.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to be degenerating into (mild) incivility.
Flat rate pricing may work for some, but it is not the only way to run a profitable residential service business.
I'm from around Dnk's area, and the large service companies with the full page ads have a reputation for exorbitant pricing (real, or imagined).
If their overhead and profit targets dictate the need to charge $4,000.00 for a service upgrade that I can, profitably, do for $2,000.00 that is their business.
I do not charge for estimates. That is my business. I am not "dragging anybody down", I just don't have the overhead that they do, nor do I aspire to grow a company that can be sold someday.
Just because someone feels different about a business model, there is no need to get snide with them.
I have been a member of this boared for about 5 years, and this sort of bickering has rarely been seen.

In the words of Rodney King:

"Why can't we all just get along?"

I didn't mean to promote incivility. If someone wants to charge $4000.00 for an upgrade I could do for 1/2 that, power to them. A guy in my area advertised in the local paper "Complete service upgrades from $450.00!!" a year ago. He's working at Walmart as a stockperson now. Lowballers and highenders usually run their course in 2 years or less around here. I don't spend too much time worrying about them, the market determines their fate soon enough. I may be the odd bird. I just want to be able to pay my bills,get my kids an education and retire a few months before I die. Gave up on getting rich years ago. I think the Lord knows I wouldn't handle it well.

Fred,
My response wasn't directed at your post.

BTW,

I'm in your boat. Just want to work(not toooo hard), pay the bills and save something for retirement.
My prices reflect that.

I guess there is alot of us Contractor B's here...


But I'm the only one "dragging everyone down",
go figure....


Dnk...

I don't go around telling people that they should hang up on contractors that give free estimates or not to call a contractor that has a small ad or no ad in the yellow pages.
Dnk's post on the other forum basically stated to hang up on a contractor who charges a dispatch fee and has a full page ad as if he is some kind of crook. Red flag as he put it.

If a customer feels It's not worth paying my $29 dispatch fee for me to spend a few hours giving them an estimate I would prefer not to work for them.

I guess a legit contractor would never charge a dispatch fee.

I don't care if you want to give free estimates or don't want to advertise in the yellow pages but don't knock me because I do these things. How do you know I'm going to do the same job as contractor B?



[This message has been edited by A-Line (edited 04-16-2006).]

Dave,

How you run your business is no ones concern, If your satified with it, then that is good, please try to understand, that there are others that are contracting jobs, and are not price gouging, most are working very hard, to hold on, i hope some flat rate over the hill pricing, is not being confused with those of us that contract a set price, as you know i am in jersey and here any job over $200 has to have a contract, it's the law, we estimate a job based on our fixed expenses, labor costs, and a small profit.

Nice. http://forum.doityourself.com/showpost.php?p=968157&postcount=6


[This message has been edited by A-Line (edited 04-16-2006).]

I simply claim to be an engineer. That covers a lot of ground - including electrical engineering.

I never said that it is easy to wire a house in a code compliant manner. I never said it was safe.

I simply said that having an electrictian do the wiring is not cost effective to the homeowner.

I am sure that $100/hr is a fair rate for an electrictian. That is cost effective for a business, but not a homeowner.

Would you pay a painter $100/hr to paint your house? Or pay a plumber $100/hr to replace a fixture?

I don't think so. You don't view it as cost effective.

I am just an engineer. I don't do work for homeowners. Because of my billing structure, it is not cost effective for the homeowner.

A lot of work is not cost effective for one side or the other.

Just out of curiousity, what benefits do you offer your employee's Dnkldork ? Medical or dental ?

My guess is you don't offer any and pass that savings on to the customer 'cause your a decent guy without the full page add


What is your view on the new terrorism tax that is charged with workman's comp now ? or do you even have that ?

Your a business man right ? Let's hear about your business model, school me if you will there "SuperDave"

P.S. Where can I get a copy of that Shazam style red lightning bolt you have on trucks ?



[This message has been edited by Rich R (edited 04-17-2006).]

I can get downright uncivil when it comes to protecting my family and employees.

I don't care if you charge flat rate, t&m, wampum, crack rocks, or whatever,

just know your costs. your true costs. don't assume. do the calculations.

Last thought (publicly anyway) on this subject.

Dnk doesn't do residential service or installations. How come?

There isn't enough money in it for him.

So, rather than letting other people fill the needs and voids and make a good living doing it. He'd rather advocate the exact behavior that caused him to decide there isn't enough money in it for him.

Now, if that is not convoluded thinking, I don't know what is.

By the way, I don't have a million dollar home, or a private jet or any of the other things that you "rip-off" contractors own. However, I also don't want to work 60 hrs a week to cover my bills. I can just as easily go work for another contractor if I wanted just enough to cover my bills and go fishing on sunday. Plus, I wouldn't have the headaches.

Good luck and fight the fight. Read, learn and move beyond guys that just don't get it.

Well it seems to be getting worse...

Ad hominem attacks are usually a last resort when one can bring nothing of substance to a debate.

I can't imagine what the logo on someones truck has to do with their competency.


Anyway,

It has also been implied that us "non-ESI" types don't return phone calls promptly, don't stand behind their work and that most customers want same day service and are willing to pay a premium for it.
I have no dispatcher, but I have a cell phone. If I'm not carrying it, I check it hourly. Most missed calls are returned within about an hour, the others are returned by the next morning. I can only think of a few times in the past 5 years when a customer couldn't wait for my service, and I'd expect them to go elsewhere. I'd even refer them to someone else. Some people will pay a premium for faster (not necessarily better) service, but all things being equal, I personally would wait a few days and pay $2,000.00 for a service upgrade than pay $4,000.00 to have it done today.

I have one full-time man with benefits (medical, hoildays, vacation) and I am on the verge of hiring my second one. So far, I haven't needed gimmicks.
My overhead costs are simply not that high, and my prices reflect what I need to sustain minor growth. That is all I'm after right now. If things change, maybe I'll change.
Until then...

"Why can't we all just get along"



[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 04-17-2006).]

(Moved here from General Area)
Please continue civilly.

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 04-17-2006).]

Redsy,

I haven't given into any ad homimem attacks. I just get downright uncivil when someone who has a history of not understanding, publically calls a large segment of our industry liars

I also get angry when they essentially tell consumers (consumers who they do not want to deal with because there is not enough money in it for him.) that they should not have to pay for our time

I also get pretty pissy when someone doesn't comprehend that not knowing your costs = being a bad business man

I might even tend to get upset when he calls a good percentage of hardworking contractors greedy

Or when he doesn't realize that the law says we have to pay employees for every hour they work, even travel time between jobs

Maybe even a little frustrated when he doesn't realize that there is a difference between running a company and owning your job. Might be better off working for a contractor A.

I might even get ticked that he tells consumers that our work is a commodity and there really is no difference between any of us

Or that he doesn't comprehend the fact that a good portion of the going rate contractors can not afford the things that "rip off" contractors can
(I'll tell this to the 25-30 contractors I see daily who are in this situation. See, in NJ it costs $800-$1000/month for an individual to get medical insurance for a family of 3-4)

But if I was going to actually get mad, it would be when they tell consumers that they shouldn't have to pay for our services

I mean, to generalize and use ad hominem attacks on an entire segment of our industry. That would just be wrong.

Redsy, if you are able to pay for your employees medical benefits, give him paid holidays and vacation, pay him a above average salary and whatever other benefits. Yet still pay yourself a good salary and cover your families benefits, take vacations, etc. And do it on the going rate. Then more power to you. You are the only person I've ever met who is able to do it. No lie.

First of all...I'm not the Dave that some are commenting about.

In regards to pricing, the central issue IMHO is about trust more than price. Does the client trust that you will be professional and provide a quality installation at a FAIR price?

This is rarely an issue on repeat jobs, but is a major issue on first jobs. It is confusing to first time clients when they're trying to find a good contractor and aren't sure how to compare them. This is where you get questions like "What is your hourly rate?".

When someone isn't trustworthy T&M or Flat Rate can be abused. IMO T&M is stress-free for the contractor (if it takes longer, you still make your rate). IMO Flat Rate is stress-free for the client (if it takes longer, the price remains the same).

On the issue of price, there is no guarantee which system will save money for the client or be more profitable for the contractor.

I've done both & prefer Flat Rate. I prefered T&M when my estimating skills were weak. My #1 & #2 skills now are high-quality installations & estimating. I'm able to very accurately estimate the variables of an installation.

A contractor fears working for nothing & if you underestimate, you're working for nothing on part of the job. That's a good reason to use T&M, but to repeat myself, I don't use it because I think it adds stress to new clients & I don't have significant problems with estimating.

I should add that almost all of my work is residential service.

Dave

First off, let's get something straight...

My response was to Veronica, and all my views expressed are my opinions, just as these are yours...

The views and opinions that are expressed on this board, should stay on this board. The idea of posting on various boards, with the intent of slamming someones ideas or opinions to justify an opinion of your own, is outright childish (for lack of a better PG rated word). Grow up......

Why don't any of you here, post a topic on that site, in regards to contractor pricing?
Why is that sites topic here, it was started there and should stay there......

My views on large add advertisers and charging fees to show up are well know here, and documented. It is not my idea of running a business, nor will it ever be. Does that make me a business guru, probably not.... Should I go complaining to everyone, that everyone should go to T&M, because otherwise your all bring the industry down, probably not....
Should I say, that I can't make any money, because of the rest of you, so therefore I'm leaving this industry..probably not....

I stand by everything I write, and I am not interested in fighting any fight.

Now let's take on the personel stuff...

Aline:
The quote you posted is my thought. I stand by it, and will always state that a Large page advertiser is going to cost more than most everyone else. They have to pay for that advertising, and we all know who is getting billed for it....And yes, to me..if someone wants my money before doing anything..this is a red flag to me..shame on me once, not again..Do I have the right to share my thoughts and experiences with anyone else..absolutley...the same guy that gave me that right, gave you the right to tell me I'm nuts....

Rich R,
My business plan is simple. Contractor B.
Does that make my plan any better or worse than yours...doubt it...
Should I increase my overhead, so I have to raise my prices, so I loose my competive edge? No, we both know that won't happen...
As far as employees, read some earlier posts. When I first started out I did resi remodels and service. I know all about it..There was 4 of us, and yes, all recieved health benefits, vacation pay, ect... I am not a slumblord contractor making a killing off employees backs.... I don't think anyone at this site is. There is too high of a class of people here...
The shazamm thing? I had a marketting guy come up with all that for me.....The bolt isn't trade protected so if you want to use it, go ahead...

Capt al, don't want the job, got too much work of my own...still looking for a camera though...

Les, once again the voice of reason..Thx..

Mahlere, I have no itentions of defending myself at the other sites that you felt so inclined as to bash me. Pls, go there and tell them I didn't start a thread there, reply to a thread there, so I have no need to get involved with your antics..Where a thread starts, it should stay and stop. If you feel as If Myself, redsy, John, Dave, mark, ray, dave S, and other contractors in my area don't get you, I don't know what to tell you...If you feel the desire to shout at the top of the mountain that we are causing the decline in the electrical contracting industry, and because of us, you can't make a living....so be it...you were given the same right as myself and A-line were...

Now having been long winded here, I have to go bury my brother-in-law...After that I am spending the rest of the month in Aruba tuna fishing and playing golf...

Keep it civil...

Dnk...

maherle,
The ad hominem comment was not directed at you.
Anyway,
My situation is different than yours. I continue to personally work in the field and I hire trainees, who probably don't cost me as much as "seasoned technicians".
Besides, based on the electrical work I see from "electricians" who preceded me, I am reluctant to hire someone and send them, unsupervised, into a customers home. Remember, here in PA, ECs are not regulated. So the guys who have 5 years experience often have it from working with a hack who is only licensed because he paid a $100.00 fee to the township. (Overstuffed / ungrounded boxes, mini breakers where they don't belong, PVC conduits underground with NM cable inside, service upgrades without GEC upsizing, etc.) Last year I got my NJ license, and since I have some opportunities to use it, I'm hoping it isn't as bad over there.
Also, about 50% of my work is new construction, so on average, my unbillable hours are quite a bit less than a service-only outfit.

Good luck!

DNK,

Can't argue with your opinion.

Sorry about your BIL, never fun.

But DNK, I still think you did the entire industry, and all the hardworking contractors everywhere, an incredible disservice with that post. Pushed us back a couple of years.


BTW, reread LK's post. I read that he's telling you to run your business how you want, but don't screw those of us that want to run it differently. Ironically, that has been my contention all along.

You and I have disagreed on most everything, but never once did I start a topic calling you out. I simply answered your questions and attempted to show you my point of view.

[This message has been edited by mahlere (edited 04-17-2006).]

Redsy,

you're last line is the crux of the issue. New construction and service work are 2 different animals.

I get upset with guys who don't understand the service industry, telling those of us in it that we are greedy, and telling customers that we charge to much.

If you want to do new construction with yourself and a couple of helpers, that is your decision. But, please don't equate your costs/overhead/etc with those of a service contractor. They are different.

Read Plumbing and Mechanical Magazine (Randall Hilton, Maurice Maio, Frank Blau - he retired, but his old columns are archived-, Ellen Rohr, etc) They are light years ahead of the electrical industry for service work.

Read them, understand service work. Then decide if it's for you or not.

But to take a new construction mentality and tell people to never believe a contractor. That there is some mythical going rate - who set this rate and based on what?

Redsy, your business is your business. You will run it how you see fit. But please read the people I mentioned, it will give you an incredibly different perspective.

Good luck.

From reading forums and Chat participations i have learned that there are unscrupulous companies that are taking advantage of flat rate i have heard stories of over charging, up selling things not in the best interest of the customer just to fleece the pockets of some contractors. I think California has even Charged some with trade practice issues. These are the guys that are giving up front pricing a bad name.

Likewise, contractors giving T&M a bad name charge for materials not installed, hours not worked, or those "milking" a job.

Dave

Speaking of which,
NJ law (white book 13:31-3.7) prohibits "unconscionable pricing".
What is unconsciable is debatable, but they have guidelines.

I would wonder if some of the prices I've heard around town (if true) would be considered unconscionable.

And with that, I'm done.

Good night Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.

"don't equate your costs/overhead/etc with those of a service contractor. They are different."
____________________________________________

This is the topic, that is of intrest, so can we try to stay in this area.

Thank you,

Les

This is why EC's can't get it together. One bad apple can spoil the bunch. Shameful as far as I am concerned.

Lear,

it is a shame. look at the plumbers in your area. Most of them talk. Most are friendly competitor. Most have an hourly rate that puts us to shame. And most live better lives than electricians.

but, they stick together. Not in an attempt to screw the customer, but in an attempt to better themselves.

Dnk,

Isn't this exactly what you did? Took the ideas and opinions of contractors on these other forums, went to a do it yourself site and slammed them because you don't agree with them.

A-Line, you can not argue with opinions. If you notice, when dnk gets called out, he typically resorts to a martyr position and tends to subtly blame everyone with backhanded comments. it's happened time and time again.

Why doesn't someone take the high road and just let it go.

redsy, in all honesty, i want us all to take the high road. go on a consumer site and blight an entire segment of our industry, then attempt to play the victim.

sorry, i don't buy it and you shouldn't be selling it.