I spell out in my contracts that permits, bonds, licenses, inspection fees are NOT included.

I submitted an invoice to a GC for $175.00 to cover the village's licensing fee and the required bond.

The GC refuses to pay it saying, " I have never had a sub bill me for this. What if you do other jobs in the same village, I am paying for you to work in the village."

Now, I know I should have simply included the fee in my price. That would have simplified my situation.

I have had a few differences of opinion with this GC so I don't think he will be using me for any future work so I'm not worried about burning any bridges.

Opinions ?

Engineering, Permits & Fees are Excluded.

This is in my contract and I never had a GC or a Cust bach at paying it.

Rob

bach? is spelling correct?

[This message has been edited by sierra electrician (edited 12-08-2005).]

If this GC has never had anyone bill for this than he is uninformed and is using uninformed sub's. Or they are just including it upfront. I'll bet they are just taking it out of their profit and rationalizing it with themselves that they figured it. I used to get intimidated by these types, but not anymore.

The only time recently I have eaten this cost is when I forgot to mention it upfront (maybe once in the last several years).

My old boss closed his EC shop and went to work for a big commercial GC running multimillion dollar job and saw how things get done. He then went out on his own and I did a couple of buildouts for him. There was no question at all about who pays these. Even his contract excludes these fees and say owner is resposible. Now this is coming from a climate of strong-arming favors, buying back bids, chipping small percents off expense after the job is sold, strickly to inflate profit by whatever small amount he can. If he'll admit it's a legitimate charge, then it is.

I also had another guy that would sell sunrooms all over this area. He would complain that he was paying $xxxx.xx per year for me to be allowed to work in all these different areas. I just laughed and told him I'd mail him a check for half if I get another job in that village before the year is up. He got the point that it is a job expense to that specific job. I also always gave him the option to get someone local, and that would shut him up too.

The only one I chaulk up as overhead is my local city that holds my license. I need it to keep my license current and I do my highest percentage of work here.

Another question, can a mechanics lien be attached to the property due to non-payment of the permit fees ? I realize this answer may vary from state to state.

You probably should have included it in your bid. How much are you going to go through over $175?

Dave

Why would you not build it in to the cost of the job? This is like billing separately for wirenuts.

I used to include it, but my competitors would not. This made them look cheaper and I would loose work. Besides, so much of our work takes place even without permits. Its wrong, but thats life.

Rob

[This message has been edited by sierra electrician (edited 12-09-2005).]

Permit fees are not usually included- if for no other reason than various government agencies keep changing, or adding to, their fees.
Such fees are also, when you get down to it, the responsibility of the property owner. I (In a "turn key" operation, this would also be the GC).

So how to resolve a dispute. Simply don't call for an inspection until you've been paid. The permit is in your name- only you can call.

The GC you describe is, at the minimum, unprofessional. You're probably better off working with someone a little more, well, competent.

Exactly. That's why it should be built into the price.

You must have not bid this job on specs. The specs that I normaly bid from state clearly that the sub contractor is responsible for permits and fees. That means put the money into the bid.

Some areas dont use seperate permits for each trade. They use one permit to cover all the trades, in that case the GC would have to cover the cost in his bid.

Then I get another permit for the separate job at the different site...

Hey Bill,

In IL once your a registered EC in one place you should not have to pay in any other place. You also should not ave to pay more then $25 for this fee. IL statute ch.24, par.11-33-1. That said it's not how it works in some places. Sometimes the smaller the village the more they want to charge you for the privlage of doing work. I always try to point out that such charges allowed under IL law. I provide a copy of the law with all other papers I give the village. Some places I believe it was just an oversite of their legal department. Some maybe just know but wait for the EC to speak up. While others could care less what the laws are and your forced to pay. Sometimes they will just say it's not an EC registration fee or EC liciance fee but a bisness licence fee to do work in their town. To make things worse most just expire at the end of the year so sometime you don't get much time on it.

With a call to the village or maybe on the internet it is not to difficult to find their registration fee and bond requirment. The trouble is sometimes a job comes up so fast or after hours you can't price out the fees. It should be paid for by the customer but the differance of opinion here comes into how to figure it in. I add $100 into the price of projects for this. A few times it's more then needed and other times I'm short. It's easy to add a line item for this but like you said a few have a problem with this.

The permit fees is something totaly different. Most places here can't even give you a price for the permits when you apply. Many figure the price when the permit application and plans are reviewed which can take a week or more. There is no way to price this out. Unless you applied for a permit on every job you bid out and had the time to wait. I don't think the building dept. would like that. All GC's I worked for paid permit fee's. I think many villages make the GC picking up the permit pay all the fee's at the same time.

Also be carefull with the wording. Sometimes the permit cost is not so bad but they get you on everything elce. Permit review fee, inspection fees, deposit refundable maybe next year, overweight truck permits, and maybe even reinspection fees.

Sometimes I just added some $ to a HO bid to cover permits. I just had a generator permit that may cost around $550. I'm learning. No more permits included for me.

As far as a lien if your contracted stated the GC should pay the $175 then you have a right to collect the $. The lien papers are not that hard and it will cost you about $20 to do. I would spend the time and $ if someone owed me $175.

You have to concider your relationship with the GC and the end customer. A lien for $175 would sour any relationship. If that is not a concern then fist send an intent to file lien letter to the customer and a bill for $175. Maybe that will be enough. If not lien away.

Tom

Are you asking the General to pay for your license fee? I can see permit fee, engineering fee, any bonding for that particular for that job. But you shouldn't expect your license fee to be paid for by someone else unless you will exclusively work for him.

William,

I already pay for my license fee to the city that I hold my license in. The village I was working in has their own "fee" to acquire "their" license. That is the fee I am trying to recover.

Here in the Dallas-Ft. Worth metroplex, even tho we have a state license now, you have to pay a fee for each city to license and register your business. You may only have one job in that city for that year but the combined cost can be about $200. If you do not renew at the end of your year (some are calender years, in which case you may have to pay this fee to be allowed to work in that jurisdiction for a week or two) and you do not have another job in that jurisdiction for more than a year...you are charged a late fee (Dallas it is $60). To try and keep up your license in all the cities in the metroplex would total thousands of dollars a year and you might only work in a couple of them during the year. I build my fees into the bid, unless it is a small job. On the small jobs I add a percentage to help cover my costs. I wouldn't mind paying for my license and registration and not charging the customer (cost of doing business)if I only worked in one city...but here every city wants their money. Is it the same for any of the rest of you?

The situation is very similar in Illinois, WhiteRook. Although a violation of State Statutes, how much trouble are you going to go through for a $50 or $75 fee. The good point is that many of the jurisdictions have no fee, so it may only cost a few hundred dollars to keep current with a limited territory. I usually let them lapse until another job comes up in that jurisdiction. If you figure it as a job cost or overhead is up to you.

Dave

I try to work local. Then I see An EC drive 120 miles to do a job 2 miles from my home. And an electrician down the street commutes 2 hours to work in the big city. These jobs waste fuel and time.

kd,

Your profile is missing Occupation and Location

Thank you,

Les