ECN Forum
Posted By: JFLS41 New to Residential work, need advice - 03/08/05 03:25 PM
I am new to this forum and just recently started my own electrician business in Western Pennyslvania. My background is with industrial electricity but I do not want to do that anymore. Can someone give me pointers or help in determining what to charge customers for doing residential work. So far I have found I estimated too few hours for doing things I think are simple to do, like re-wire outlets, etc... I learned fast things are not what they seem once you get into the job. So whats the best method for someone like me who is learning. Whats the best way of pricing a job so I don't scare the customer when I give them an estimate yet I don't give them free work when I realize I have not estimated enough hours. Should I not tell them the hours or my rate that I charge? Any input and feedback you guys can give is much appreciated. Also, I enjoy reading through these forums and I am learning alot.

Also, I am taking the Electrician course throught Thompson Learning-Education Direct so I am learning the code stuff and electrical as it applies to residential and small commercial work. Plus reading this forum and being able to come on here and ask questions is a great resource, like having a retired experienced electrician as a neighbor.

Jeff
Posted By: Dave55 Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/08/05 11:21 PM
I'm a little shocked that you're running an electrical contracting business while taking an electricin course. I short-cut the process myself, but had to pass an exam on "the code stuff" first. I'm almost afraid to give you any advice here.

Dave
Posted By: JFLS41 Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/09/05 03:42 AM
well, to alleviate your fears, If you had read the full post you would see I have industrial electrical experience. as for codes, its not rocket science, I have the NEC book as a reference and keep the codecheck charts with me.
Posted By: Dave55 Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/09/05 04:45 AM
Then all you need to do is a break-even analysis, learn to estimate, come up with a marketing plan, sharpen your sales skills, get a license and insurance and you'll be all set.

Seriously, if you read 10-15 hours per week on all of the above and more, you'll have it made.

Dave
Posted By: electure Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/11/05 11:49 AM
Unless things have changed, Dave, Pennsylvania has no licensing requirement for Construction Contractors unless they're working on Public Works projects.

Write "Electrical Contractor" on the side of your car, and you is one.
Posted By: detubbs Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/11/05 01:20 PM
thats how it still is here in PA people slap there name on the side of there truck after they graduate tech school and they think they're gunna take goin the world. my father was an electrician working for my uncle for 20 years before he "took over" the business.
Posted By: JFLS41 Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/11/05 02:40 PM
To be honest, I was glad when I found out PA had no lic req on the statewide level for electrical contractors. It made it feasible and fast business startup to get my business going. There is some positives and negatives to that of course. Biggest negative being any Tom, Dick and Harry can say he is an electrician. The positive is the serious, educated person can grow a business affordably and doesn't have to go through all the beaucratic garbage I read about. I wouldn't know PA if your someone like me, 5 years industrial electrical experience who decided he wanted to stay closer to home and start his own residential & commercial business. As for the electrical codes, it's not rocket science, get the codebook, Mike Holts course and study away...

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 03-11-2005).]
Posted By: JFLS41 Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/11/05 02:45 PM
and just to add to that, in case anyone wants to view me in a negative light, there is alot of Tom, Dick and Harry's doing work around here, thank God someone like me is getting into the business and doing work the right way. one last thing, I came to this forum because I saw it is a great resource for electricians, I hope I have wandered into a bed of disgruntled guys who want to pick a scab...

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 03-11-2005).]
Posted By: JFLS41 Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/11/05 02:46 PM
hope i "haven't" wandered, I meant to say...
Posted By: DougW Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/11/05 02:54 PM
+1 for the Education Direct class (my alma mater for booklearnin'). They're not bad for a good general overview.

As far as codes go, make sure you check your local AHJ's for additions / mods / changes, and what version of the NEC they're using currently.

Nothing beats hands on experience, however. You might want to try acting as a "sub" for another resi shop in the area until you get more experience with the "little" stuff (compared to your industrial history) [Linked Image]
Posted By: Fred Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/11/05 05:07 PM
Licensing requirements are all over the place here in Indiana. I passed the Block Master's Exam in 1998 locally. I didn't have to because I was "grandfathered in" but wanted to in hopes of other jurisdictions reciprocating if I had passed the Masters. Some do and others don't. I wish it was uniform state-wide. The towns I have dealt with that won't accept the Block Exam do so for politically motivated reasons. They suggest I approach a locally licensed electrical contractor and do the job under their license for a fee of 2% of the total job. Once I have done this a time or 2 I can apply for my own license in their town. No thanks. I have enlisted the help of a State Deputy Building Commissioner who has known me and inspected my commercial projects for several years to cut through some of the bull the last few months with some success and now have licenses in a couple of these towns. But it shouldn't be this way. I also have done commercial new construction in fairly large towns where nothing was required in the way of licensing. Not even proof of insurance! This is equally idiotic, in my opinion. I would be all for state-wide licensing with a requirement for x number of CEUs every 4 years. Your race, creed, color, political affiliation, home town, union/non union status should not affect your right to work in a jurisdiction. It should be based on verifiable ability and compliance with code standards.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/12/05 01:55 AM
SE PA, 1hr north of Pitts.
Licenses are done through local townships, and generally you have to have a license in every township. Gets kinda expensive. @$100 each.

Just proof of insurance and FED ID number is usually all it takes.

Having said that:

Even with a state wide licensing, you'll never keep Tom, Dick and Harry, "hackers" out.

In fact, Most of the guys here in the yellow books, don't do electric work. They are "fronts".

They take out multiple adds, hire sub contractors to sell and do the work and pay them cash, uasually 40% of the job total.
They pay all advertising costs, but do no work.

That's how you see 200A services going for $5,000.

I am hoping someday, the state puts and end to this pratice, Or the IRS gets involved. This type of pratice is killing the industry when it comes to "respectability".

Dnk......

[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 04-07-2005).]
Posted By: kd Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 03/15/05 01:47 PM
The fact that the fronts continue to grow and stay in business shows the power of advertising. The people who go with those companies have an inelastic demand curve: they want the job done now and do not care what it costs.
Hi,
Here is what I think..no, what I know..to be successful as an electrical contractor you need to find what you do best and stick to that.

Residential work takes "TIME ON THE POND" to gain experience. You cant go read a book and learn the practical stuff or the tricks of the trade...you will not be able to compete with the romex rangers out there who have done their time..you will redo more than you do. if you have qualified electrical inspectors out there i doubt that you could pass an inspection!

second- residential work is more complicated than almost any other work...beleive it or not.

third- residential installations have far more rules than ANY other install..

we all start somewhere! hang in there!

good luck...

regards

greg

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-15-2005).]
Hey mustang...how ya been? You haven't posted much recently.How did you make out on that dwelling you did? Pull lots of romex in there?

I've never thought of wiring houses as "more complicated" than other electrical work.I'm a Romex Ranger by definition, for I have been pulling it (romex that is) for over 25 years.

I enjoy residential wiring for the most part. There are plenty of homes around,I don't travel much so I'm always close to my family. It is very competative though, with many a new comer ready to cut your throat for the job. You must be able to deal with the public too.

JFLS41...Just price the job by figuring the time it will take plus material. Add fair markup on top of the material cost and figure a man hour wage that is in line with what other residential contractors in the area charge and submit one price as your estimate. If your customer is scared by the price, you are better off not working for them anyway.

And as always, make sure you are QUALIFIED to do any of the installations that you undertake. You will be responsible for the rest of you life for an installation that causes property damage or personal injury from an installation that was done improperly.

shortcircuit
Shortcircuit-hello-i am up in alaska working in prudhoe bay right now so i have been busy travelling and all..got slow at work so i started visitng the site again..

how is everything? good i hope!

what i meant was...there are MORE rules in the NEC covering residential than any other part...second...the work varies from place to place..

its not rocket science but it can be for the cheechako! just having a sharp pencil and a checklist aint gonna get it done..

you know that you and i could work circles around some new guy who has been running pipe all his life...myself i have worked commercial, resi, and industrial...why? to pay the bills...i started jerking romex, then went to build a powerhouse then nuclear then maintenance then indiustrial and malls, schools and churches etc...then started all over again and always end back up where the money is...i never new what a kellum grip was or a mares tail until i hit the power house scene...the point is there are a lot of things that are not in the book!

i stil have several jobs going at home...i work two weeks on and two weeks off up here so i can come up here and make $2500 a week and then go home and make a grand a week..

i will be turkey hunting soon though so ALL work will have to take a back seat to that old gobbler i have been chasing..he skunked me last fall and i am going in after him this spring!

anyway...just my thoughts on the subject!

i still say it take more than book learning to be worth anything!

-regards

greg

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-16-2005).]
Posted By: Rick Bruder Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 04/07/05 12:12 AM
Hi guys,
I am a residential/commercial service company. I have to tell you, the money is in the residential service. We use a flat rate type of pricing system along with other business systems that coincide with the pricing system. In the residential service business the work is not overly technical, but it does take alot of finesse and grace as well as good communication skills. You also do not need to keep as much stock into inventory. We have had great success with it since we changed to a flat rate pricing system.
Posted By: JFLS41 Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 04/07/05 12:35 AM
I would like to know more about this flat rate pricing system. What part of the country do you live in?
Posted By: Rick Bruder Re: New to Residential work, need advice - 04/07/05 12:48 AM
I'm your neighbor, except from the other side of the state. Flat Rate system is a business system that believe it or not, starts with how you answer the phone. You need to be able to communicate to the client that you are going to provide premium service to them. My Technicians wear uniforms, our trucks are clearly labeled and professional looking. We stock enough parts to complete any job they need when we get there so we don't waste time going out and sending an estimate, then going back to do the work. When they price the job, they get the pricing from a book that has everything broken down in individual tasks, much like a restaurant menu. The client gets to see the book so they can see the pricing and where it comes from. It usually blows them away. Since I started pricing this way, I have almost tripled my average invoice price. Also, it WILL work in your market. I belong to a group called Electrician Success International and we are all running the same business systems all over the country. In all types of economic markets. So it does work.
We also offer very strict satisfaction and workmanship guarantees to back up all we tell the client.

I hope it helps
© ECN Electrical Forums