Sorry I can not get a picture, but I red-tagged a contractor because he put a service behind the shutter of a window. I sited 110.12 because he could have moved it over 8" and it would not be behind the shutter.
Than an arguement started and has continue.
Any thoughts
Yes it is
Joe has given me two usernames and two passwords, but for some reason I can not sign onto that site.
The pics, and discussion, are also at "SE Cable behind window shutter" in the "Photos submitted for discussion" forum
I would like to ask Joe a few questions:
What is the concern? Do you just not like the way it looks, or is it something more?
Damage to the cable from either the shutter's installation or future fasteners?
Proximity of the window? Do we know whether the cable or the shutter was there first?
I'm no inspector, but I would allow it, if I could be certain the cable is safe.
I think it looks like crap...plain and simple.
IMHO, 110.12 applies. This is NOT a workmanship like manner - the cable does not need to be behind that shutter, so why was it put there?
I suspect the shutters were added after the service was installed.
One of those "honey they had shutters on sale at Home Depot and I got us some, put them up please"
Ok, I have to disagree with the inspectors here. Sorry about this, but you can't fail them for shotty workmanship.
If we remove the shutter, from the picture, say it was never there, could you fail them for workmanship? NO. From the picture, it looks like an everyday installation.
Now, let's say the electrician does his job, and then the next day, the HO installs the shutter. Is it the electricians fault? Once again NO.
To blame the electrician for shotty work, would be a slap in the face to the electrician. Blaming whoever put up the shutter, would be the appropriate avenue.
If the HO wants a shutter there, pay the electrician to pull another permit, pay him to relocate it, and pay him to have it inspected again.
I feel the electrical inspector, should have put a hold on the inspection, not red tag it.
Dnk......
OK, the cart before the horse routine..
Service probably was 'existing' when the shutters were installed...can't say 'for sure'...but no self-respecting Sparky would do that around here! The POCO's frown on hiding any service conductors behind anything.
"Workmanship" is NOT an item that can buy a red sticker in NJ. But as we all know, if it's a 'sloppy' job, you can find a 'good' fail item. If I came upon this for an inspection, I would put it on "Hold" & the EC would get a phone call for an explanation.
This could happen when the EC FAILS to call for an inspection in a timely manner.
John
I looked at the tech card and when I went to inspect the job it was about a three month time period. I did ask what came first the new service or the shutter and I did not get a straight forward answer. As far as I am concerned, when I go to inspect a job for a service, or any other job, it has to been done as per NEC 2002 unitl 2005 is adapted in New Jersey. I do not believe the EC did this job, but his name is on the permit so therefore he his responsibe. The Red Tag stands.
I don't think that any citiation based only on 110.12 will stand up if challanged in court. It is too subjective. If the SE behind the shutter is the only thing that is causing the red tag, I think that the tag should be removed. I don't see it as a safety problem, in fact the shutter provides additional protection to the SE. Some might say that this is service conductors inside the building, but I don't think that the space between the siding and the shutter is inside the building.
Don.
As I stated in the original thread I see no real problem with this other than appearance. If it were me and I did this (I didn't) I would obviously take the shutter down pass my inspection and move on. Whatever that case, when you are citing neat and workmanlike for a failed inspection it makes me want to see all the work you have ever done. I am sure there is something that someone would not agree with. PS, this still looks like an old service to me.
I'm an electrical inspector and NO building official I have worked for would permit me to red tag a job for 110.12. I'd be told either find a legitimate (and real) violation or sign off on the job.
Joe, Did you ask about the relationship between the two non-english speaking guys you saw at the job, and the EC? (You mentioned them in the Pictures Posting) They seem to be your main issue with the job. I see NO code, or for that matter workmanship issues with the job. (Unless you have local code that says specifically, that SE can not be under a finish.)
The two guys could have been anyone... The painters, rockers, landscapers, the GC's employees, relatives of the owners... They could be anyone! IMHO you are a little too suspicious about their presence! Even if they were legally employed by him, there is still nothing wrong with that.
Now, if you had witness to them doing the work, and they were not legally employed by him, that would still not be a workmanship issue, or a red tag. That would be an employment law/licensing issue.
Wouldn't it be funny if that EC showed up here on ECN?
Oh, if he move it over, its going to be a little too close to that light fixture.
[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 06-29-2005).]
Let me ask the question- Is all of the electricity going through the meter? If you catch my drift. We have had problems in that department and the utility company gets interested when they see this sort of installation
![[Linked Image]](https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/wink.gif)
George, good point.
When I did my service upgrade the PoCo yanked on all 3 service conductors in the mast pipe to be sure they were loose. When I asked he told me they have seen them going out a plumbing "T" into that little 5-7" space where they are concealed between the roof and the soffit.
Someone could then put a KupleTap on the conductor and feed into the attic to suck out some free juice.
It seems like a lot of work but it could be a lot of money over time. Of course you could get some "time" if they caught you.
Really! They should be using a T-condulet!
A 2 or 2.5" T conduit body would be too long. You could see it sticking out of the soffit. These thieves are tricky bastards.
It amazes me that someone would red tag a job for something as minor as what appears in that picture. All you needed to do was fail the inspection and the contractor would have to make the corrections. Who pays for it is none of your concern. The homeowner and the EC know which came first. Let them handle the details and the EC can call it back in when the corrections are made.
(some strong comments were removed)
[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 07-07-2005).]
Welcome to ECN, BB....I hope you will like it here.
Joe showed a great deal of courage- and honesty- in asking for our opinions. In short, he was saying he "felt," but didn't "know" for sure, and wanted to see if his instincts were correct. And he did so under a real name- he could have called himself "Inspection Guru" had he so desired.
You will find that this is a well-mannered forum, with no flaming or name-calling....though we sometimes have some strongly held differences of opinion!
Some of us have been in the trade since the two-prong plug was standard....and we still learn new things regularily. Welcome again!
Thank you reno, and you are right and I appoligize for my outbrust. Phil Bruce is the name and to Joe I'm sorry.
It just rubs me the wrong way when inspectors make a comment that "his name was on the permit so he's responsible". I'm sure ECN site is full of inspector stories. I just wish more of them would work with the contractor.
We've had houses fail inspections because the painter took the plates off to touch up around the receptacles on the kitchen counter andwhen I called to find out why his response was that "all the device plates have to be installed to get a final". He said he saw the plates laying on the counter but they needed to be installed. That's the kind of thing that I just don't get. Know one uses common sense any more and I'm just as guilty at times.
By the way I really do like the forum I'll make sure to bite my tongue in the future.